Dugout defaced with swastika sign in NewYork

[Gulo Blue]

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with choice? Bias goes both ways, right? Blacks overwhelmingly support the party that instituted the policies that are actually having adverse effects on the poor. They voted 88% for Clinton and this was the first election since at least 1996 that blacks support for the Democrat's nominee was below 93% - and it's probably longer but Gallup data from 1996 and prior only breaks out White and Non-White. No other voting block of any kind (ethnic, gender, age, lifestyle) comes even close to being that monolithic. Liberals are always talking about how poor uneducated white people vote against their own best interests by not supporting Democrats, "the hand that feeds them" but maybe they have it backwards.

I don't follow. What choice?

 

[Spartanmack]

If you can tell me which, if any, election I voted for a democratic candidate, point out any instance where I said anything derogatory towards the General Lee, if you can explain why it is my avatar, or just in general why it's a hypocrisy, perhaps your question will have credence. Until then you're simply shooting from the hip talking about things you know nothing of. Which is starting to seem like your m.o. I find it mildly entertaining, but unless you have an actual point, it's probably best you lob your schoolyard insults, disdain for others who respectfully disagree with you, and your willingness to pass judgement on those you know not of, elsewhere. I'm not the guy for childish internet beef.

You said ills plaguing black Americans (poverty, crime rates, etc) were a byproduct of racial bias (racism). You then doubled down on it when Gulo posted similar comments. Clearly, you believe racism is to blame for the plight of poor black Americans. You have a picture of the General Lee as your avatar - anything associated with the South, particularly those bearing Lee's name and the confederate flag are widely seen by liberals as at least racially insensitive if not overtly racist. So it shouldn't be too hard to put the two together and see the hypocrisy.

 

[elrod817]

You said ills plaguing black Americans (poverty, crime rates, etc) were a byproduct of racial bias (racism). You then doubled down on it when Gulo posted similar comments. Clearly, you believe racism is to blame for the plight of poor black Americans. You have a picture of the General Lee as your avatar - anything associated with the South, particularly those bearing Lee's name and the confederate flag are widely seen by liberals as at least racially insensitive if not overtly racist. So it shouldn't be too hard to put the two together and see the hypocrisy.

And you are quite obviously placing traits upon me without knowing anything about me. Try again.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't follow. What choice?

Putting their fate in the hands of government - choosing the people responsible for creating the dependency on the state. Supporting candidates whose very careers rely on a class of permanently poor people. Being duped into voting against their own best interests.

 

[Spartanmack]

And you are quite obviously placing traits upon me without knowing anything about me. Try again.

true, i don't know much about you but I'm not "placing traits" on you. I do have enough information to wonder and ask the question, though. If you don't answer, then I'll continue to know very little about you other than you seem to be a hypocrite.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Putting their fate in the hands of government - choosing the people responsible for creating the dependency on the state. Supporting candidates whose very careers rely on a class of permanently poor people. Being duped into voting against their own best interests.

I don't see what that has to do with explaining racial socioeconomic differences. I don't see that that makes these social programs impact white poor people differently from how they impact black poor people.

 

[elrod817]

true, i don't know much about you but I'm not "placing traits" on you. I do have enough information to wonder and ask the question, though. If you don't answer, then I'll continue to know very little about you other than you seem to be a hypocrite.

You have indeed placed traits upon me. In just a few short posts I became a "tone-deaf, knucklehead liberal," a racist, and a hypocrite. Merely because I politely disagreed with you. I never once said anything negative about you.

This is part of the reason why America is in the situation that it's in. Rather than trying to understand others, gain perspective, and quite possibly find ways to compromise, people are more concerned with being "right". If you dare disagree, let's just call people names and shout real loud.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't see what that has to do with explaining racial socioeconomic differences. I don't see that that makes these social programs impact white poor people differently from how they impact black poor people.

They have been told all their lives for generations now that it's not their fault they are poor. It's racist white America - society did this to you! But the Democrats can fix it for you - they elect these people at the local, state and federal level and what they get in return is a subsistence based lifestyle funded through handouts. Their schools aren't improved, their communities aren't made safe or invested in and their lives aren't improved. But they keep putting the next snake oil salesman in charge, promising more of the same. No other voting block puts their trust in a single party, that does absolutely nothing to improve their lives, year in and year out. That didn't happen to other ethnic groups and those groups don't demonstrate an overwhelming propensity to support the party that pushes these policies. If they vote for these politicians and these policies, it's not unreasonable to conclude that they rely on them more heavily as well. So maybe the cycle is being perpetuated by something other than racism.

 

[Gulo Blue]

They have been told all their lives for generations now that it's not their fault they are poor. It's racist white America - society did this to you! But the Democrats can fix it for you - they elect these people at the local, state and federal level and what they get in return is a subsistence based lifestyle funded through handouts. Their schools aren't improved, their communities aren't made safe or invested in and their lives aren't improved. But they keep putting the next snake oil salesman in charge, promising more of the same. No other voting block puts their trust in a single party, that does absolutely nothing to improve their lives, year in and year out. That didn't happen to other ethnic groups and those groups don't demonstrate an overwhelming propensity to support the party that pushes these policies. If they vote for these politicians and these policies, it's not unreasonable to conclude that they rely on them more heavily as well. So maybe the cycle is being perpetuated by something other than racism.

This is a bunch of hand waving and conjecture with no real explanation for racial disparity. Most of what you're saying here about schools and communities not getting better also applies to poor whites.

Did you see my thread on racial bias studies?

 

[Michchamp]

Candid camera here... let's see how long Gulo can patiently try to argue a racial point with an actual racist, before he resorts to calling him a racist.

He seems calm on the surface, but notice his body language is changing, and he's starting to get that tick in his eyelid every time he reads another obfuscation.

 

[Spartanmack]

Candid camera here... let's see how long Gulo can patiently try to argue a racial point with an actual racist, before he resorts to calling him a racist.

He seems calm on the surface, but notice his body language is changing, and he's starting to get that tick in his eyelid every time he reads another obfuscation.

He's not arguing with you.

 

[Spartanmack]

This is a bunch of hand waving and conjecture with no real explanation for racial disparity. Most of what you're saying here about schools and communities not getting better also applies to poor whites.

Did you see my thread on racial bias studies?

it's not hand waving and conjecture - at least no moreso than you saying bias is the cause of poverty. What's happened here - have we decided to finally accept all races and nationalities except blacks who we have chosen to keep in poverty. Did we consciously decide to no longer keep Asians, those lazy Irish people, Indians (who also have brown skin by the way), etc down with our bias? Or did they successfully overcome our bias and us white folk finally caught on before blacks could dig themselves out of poverty? We intentionally took all their jobs, put them in ghettos and created a permanently poor, dependent class because that's better socially and economically for whites than allowing them to compete and even thrive in a multicultural society. We're so biased that we would prefer paying the cost of ever-increasing social welfare rather than give them economic freedom so that get by on their own? That makes absolutely no sense. If you believe that - I'm not saying you do but if you do, that's michturd levels of stupidity. And if you believe we just haven't figured out the social and economic costs of our innate biases we're not even aware we have and therefore haven't taken steps to improve it, that's pretty foolish too.

There are three things you need to do to not be poor in America: 1) graduate from high school 2) get and keep a job and 3) don't have children until you're married. The poverty rate among 2 parent black families in America is 7%. The poverty rate among single parent white families is 22% - where's the bias? What happened to white single moms' white privelege? Those numbers make it pretty clear that value based choices has something to do with poverty.

And again, I'm not saying bias doesn't exist or that we shouldn't do anything to eliminate it. It's just not the driving force behind racial disparities in the criminal justice system or why black people are overly represented in prison and among poor people in America.

 

[Gulo Blue]

it's not hand waving and conjecture - at least no moreso than you saying bias is the cause of poverty. What's happened here - have we decided to finally accept all races and nationalities except blacks who we have chosen to keep in poverty. Did we consciously decide to no longer keep Asians, those lazy Irish people, Indians (who also have brown skin by the way), etc down with our bias? Or did they successfully overcome our bias and us white folk finally caught on before blacks could dig themselves out of poverty? We intentionally took all their jobs, put them in ghettos and created a permanently poor, dependent class because that's better socially and economically for whites than allowing them to compete and even thrive in a multicultural society. We're so biased that we would prefer paying the cost of ever-increasing social welfare rather than give them economic freedom so that get by on their own? That makes absolutely no sense. If you believe that - I'm not saying you do but if you do, that's michturd levels of stupidity. And if you believe we just haven't figured out the social and economic costs of our innate biases we're not even aware we have and therefore haven't taken steps to improve it, that's pretty foolish too.

There are three things you need to do to not be poor in America: 1) graduate from high school 2) get and keep a job and 3) don't have children until you're married. The poverty rate among 2 parent black families in America is 7%. The poverty rate among single parent white families is 22% - where's the bias? What happened to white single moms' white privelege? Those numbers make it pretty clear that value based choices has something to do with poverty.

And again, I'm not saying bias doesn't exist or that we shouldn't do anything to eliminate it. It's just not the driving force behind racial disparities in the criminal justice system or why black people are overly represented in prison and among poor people in America.

No, I don't think we can evaluate the cost of bias and see that it's working against us. We can't even do a good job of evaluating how many calories we should eat to not be, on average, overweight with tremendous healthcare costs. In fact, in the anonymous survey study I posted, it was found that minorities show signs of bias against minorities and women show signs of bias against women. Bias is really strong and unconscious. People even do it to their own race.

So I keep asking if you read that thread I started. Because I really think it's the simplest answers to the question of why things are the way they are. If It's not enough, I can probably find more.

 

[tinselwolverine]

No, I don't think we can evaluate the cost of bias and see that it's working against us. We can't even do a good job of evaluating how many calories we should eat to not be, on average, overweight with tremendous healthcare costs. In fact, in the anonymous survey study I posted, it was found that minorities show signs of bias against minorities and women show signs of bias against women. Bias is really strong and unconscious. People even do it to their own race.

So I keep asking if you read that thread I started. Because I really think it's the simplest answers to the question of why things are the way they are. If It's not enough, I can probably find more.

If you want to know why bitches be hating other bitches, you should watch Chelsea handler on Netflix, episode 79.

Those bitches on that episode be layin' that shit right out there, and shit.

 

[Spartanmack]

No, I don't think we can evaluate the cost of bias and see that it's working against us. We can't even do a good job of evaluating how many calories we should eat to not be, on average, overweight with tremendous healthcare costs. In fact, in the anonymous survey study I posted, it was found that minorities show signs of bias against minorities and women show signs of bias against women. Bias is really strong and unconscious. People even do it to their own race.

So I keep asking if you read that thread I started. Because I really think it's the simplest answers to the question of why things are the way they are. If It's not enough, I can probably find more.

I saw the thread but it's hardly conclusive evidence that bias is the root cause of poverty. You can probably find threads with similar, perhaps less severe results for Asian sounding names or what have you. There is no single greater predictor of poverty than single parenthood and that is a value choice subsidized by the welfare state. It's why the rate of single motherhood skyrocketed for every ethnicity with the expansion of social welfare programs. Welfare doesn't encourage single parenthood more among blacks. That is where I draw the linkage between black Americans and their support for Democrats. It's not hand waving, it's indicative of the role value judgements and choices made around those judgement plays in the poverty cycle.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I saw the thread but it's hardly conclusive evidence that bias is the root cause of poverty. You can probably find threads with similar, perhaps less severe results for Asian sounding names or what have you. There is no single greater predictor of poverty than single parenthood and that is a value choice subsidized by the welfare state. It's why the rate of single motherhood skyrocketed for every ethnicity with the expansion of social welfare programs. Welfare doesn't encourage single parenthood more among blacks. That is where I draw the linkage between black Americans and their support for Democrats. It's not hand waving, it's indicative of the role value judgements and choices made around those judgement plays in the poverty cycle.

1st, I'm scratching my head at why you's brush aside that thread. It's compelling stuff.

2nd, if you aren't hand waving, then lay it out for me some more. Because I don't even follow the theory you're trying to point to. What about supporting democrats causes single parenthood?

 

[Gulo Blue]

There's another study buried in the paper on customer surveys where a medical practice tried followup calls in an effort to get customer satisfaction numbers up. So a week after seeing a doctor, people would get a phone call from the doctor checking in to see how things were going.

White male doctors' scores went up. Everyone else's went down. When they dug in to figure out why, it was because people assumed the white males were going the extra mile, but they were suspicious that women and minorities were covering something up.

 

[Spartanmack]

1st, I'm scratching my head at why you's brush aside that thread. It's compelling stuff.

2nd, if you aren't hand waving, then lay it out for me some more. Because I don't even follow the theory you're trying to point to. What about supporting democrats causes single parenthood?

1. I'm not brushing it aside, I'm discounting the effect of bias on poverty based on the evidence. evidence that shows other minorities have thrived in the face of bias and evidence that poverty has more to do with values than bias.

2. voting as a monolith for the party that pushes the policies that enable if not encourage poor value choices demonstrates a propensity to make those choices. and re-electing the very party that has run urban America into the ground for decades and generations is also indicative of a preference for the policies that perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

 

[Gulo Blue]

1. I'm not brushing it aside, I'm discounting the effect of bias on poverty based on the evidence. evidence that shows other minorities have thrived in the face of bias and evidence that poverty has more to do with values than bias.

2. voting as a monolith for the party that pushes the policies that enable if not encourage poor value choices demonstrates a propensity to make those choices. and re-electing the very party that has run urban America into the ground for decades and generations is also indicative of a preference for the policies that perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

1) What evidence? The experiences of other minorities are not apple to oranges comparisons, but if you think you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

2) I would also like to see something suggesting that there's a tendency to make poor value choices. Controlled for other factors. I don't think there's any evidence for this.

 

[Spartanmack]

1) What evidence? The experiences of other minorities are not apple to oranges comparisons, but if you think you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

2) I would also like to see something suggesting that there's a tendency to make poor value choices. Controlled for other factors. I don't think there's any evidence for this.

1) You're right they're not apples to oranges comparisons - they're much closer to apples to apples comparisons, and not like Granny Smith's to Gala's, more like Gala's to Honey Crisps. They're different but still comparable to some degree. The evidence I'm talking about is the evidence that suggests value choices have more to do with poverty than skin color - like for example the already cited statistic that only 7% of black two parent families live in poverty while 22% of white single parent families live in poverty. It's far more compelling that a handful of links to studies that prove there is bias in America. Nobody is arguing there isn't, by the way. The fact that it exists is hardly proof that it is the primary or even a significant driver of poverty.

2) how about the fact that 72% of black children are born out of wedlock - what are we not controlling for there? I know the left refuses to acknowledge that single motherhood is not an affirmative good - their goal is actually to destroy the idea that family and family values matter.