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Election Aftermath

Thanks, man. Before seeing this post I was totally going to read it.

I didn't really read it - the whole thing anyway. I wasn't going to read any of it when I opened it and saw it was 80 pages long, but I noticed there's actually a rather convenient table of contents that allows you to skip a lot of the fluff and just read the juicy bits, which themselves are really just more fluff.

You can tell from the TOC that the "Statement of Facts" is either devoid of facts or talks about facts that aren't crimes in any way. Based on the TOC is skipped right to part D on incitement and of course, it's complete and utter bullshit if they think that makes a case for incitement. For most of the rest of the facts, you can tell from the TOC (like part A in particular) is a waste of time because there's nothing illegal about it, it's just 7 pages of repeating old news.

Then I read parts of Section I (most of it - it's less than 6 pages) which again, is pure garbage. Then I skipped down to Section II, part A "Fair Impeachment Process" - it's anything but and part B "Criminality" which was also incredibly underwhelming in terms of connecting Trump's behavior to any "high crimes" or "misdemeanors."
 
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I didn't really read it - the whole thing anyway. I wasn't going to read any of it when I opened it and saw it was 80 pages long, but I noticed there's actually a rather convenient table of contents that allows you to skip a lot of the fluff and just read the juicy bits, which themselves are really just more fluff.

You can tell from the TOC that the "Statement of Facts" is either devoid of facts or talks about facts that aren't crimes in any way. Based on the TOC is skipped right to part D on incitement and of course, it's complete and utter bullshit if they think that makes a case for incitement. For most of the rest of the facts, you can tell from the TOC (like part A in particular) is a waste of time because there's nothing illegal about it, it's just 7 pages of repeating old news.

Then I read parts of Section I (most of it - it's less than 6 pages) which again, is pure garbage. Then I skipped down to Section II, part A "Fair Impeachment Process" - it's anything but and part B "Criminality" which was also incredibly underwhelming in terms of connecting Trump's behavior to any "high crimes" or "misdemeanors."

I didn?t even read this entire post.

Didn?t have to; a quick glance re-unforced my decision not to even click on the link.

Again, thanks.
 
Here's the really short version:
ARGUMENT
I. President Trump Committed High Crimes and Misdemeanors
A. President Trump Violated His Oath of Office
B. President Trump Attacked the Democratic Process
C. President Trump Imperiled Congress
D. President Trump Undermined National Security
 
Here's the really short version:

I?m aware of the points in I - D.

It kind hinges on the definition of ?incitement.?

Every talking head I?ve heard who?s a lawyer believes what he did did not rise to the legal level of ?incitement.?

Regarding the ?attack on the democratic process? - again, seems to me that would have been a lot more justification for that - but isn?t what he was impeached for.

The president ?solemnly swears to faithfully execute the office of POTUS? - whatever that means or doesn?t mean - and to ?preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United State? - but there?s a caveat - ?it?s to the best of his or her ability.? Every POTUS has come up short on that, probably. But they can always say ?hey, what the hell? I did my best.?

?Removal and disqualification? are delineated jointly in the language of Constitution, so it?s interpretive whether a president can be disqualified without having been removed - I think every Senator should be given their own opinion - but if every Democrat sees it one way, and 90% of Republicans see it the other way, it?s hard to see it as being anything but political.
 
Nah. It depends on whether Republicans think they win or lose their next primary if they are for or against it.

that's because their constituents know what he did doesn't come close to meeting the definition of incitement.
 
So this is a clear case of Post Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc.

Maybe. The trial here is more political than legal I don't think the appropriate hurdle is the legal definition of incitement. This is about upholding the Constitution. And trying to overturn votes and lying about the outcome from the Bully Pulpit is in defiance of the Oath of Office. We don't have legal definitions for all the ways a President can violate their oath.

I'm open to alternate theories though. I think it would be tough to show it was all QAnon and not Trump, but either way, more than a few lone wolves were trying to disrupt Constitutional processes through violence.
 
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Maybe. The trial here is more political than legal I don't think the appropriate hurdle is the legal definition of incitement. This is about upholding the Constitution. And trying to overturn votes and lying about the outcome from the Bully Pulpit is in defiance of the Oath of Office. We don't have legal definitions for all the ways a President can violate their oath.

I don't agree with this assertion. If you have read the GA transcript, for example, it's an explanation for the source and number of illegal votes. A rather elaborate lie, if that's the case.

Or, something to look into, which was what Trump was requesting.
 
I don't agree with this assertion. If you have read the GA transcript, for example, it's an explanation for the source and number of illegal votes. A rather elaborate lie, if that's the case.

Or, something to look into, which was what Trump was requesting.

I remember people pointing to Trump talking about the number of votes he needs as a sign that it was BS. Where's the transcript?

this one?:https://thehill.com/homenews/news/5...mp-phone-call-with-georgia-secretary-of-state

Here it is with fact check annotations from AP
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/7340548-Trump-Transcript-A.html#document/p2/a587713
 
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I remember people pointing to Trump talking about the number of votes he needs as a sign that it was BS. Where's the transcript?

this one?:https://thehill.com/homenews/news/5...mp-phone-call-with-georgia-secretary-of-state

Link

The transcript is ubiquitous. The media couldn't restrain itself from publishing it. The 11,000+ -vote margin of victory dwarfed, according to Trump, the actual number of illegal votes (estimated at 300,000) to indicate that even a cursory objective inquiry would uncover widespread voter fraud.
 
Link

The transcript is ubiquitous. The media couldn't restrain itself from publishing it. The 11,000+ -vote margin of victory dwarfed, according to Trump, the actual number of illegal votes (estimated at 300,000) to indicate that even a cursory objective inquiry would uncover widespread voter fraud.

In response to the 250-300k votes appearing, AP says this:
Trump is actually describing a legitimate vote counting process, not a sudden surge of malfeasance. Trump appears to be referring to large numbers of votes that were tabulated in the early hours of Wednesday morning after Election Day and later. The arrival of those votes was not mysterious, but expected, because many of Georgia?s 159 counties had large stacks of mail-in ballots that had to be tabulated after polls closed and in-person ballots were counted. It also would be impossible for anyone to have forged hundreds of thousands of signatures on mail-in ballots in Fulton County because there were only about 147,000 mail-in ballots in Georgia?s most populous county, with about 116,000 of them going to Biden.


But really, I think there were enough forces on Trump's side to investigate this stuff and bring it before Trump-appointed judges. At the very least, the word would have gotten out.
 
But I'm posting assuming Trump will get off the hook. It's wild that this can happen and we'll punish the little guys and shrug our shoulders and go home.
 
In response to the 250-300k votes appearing, AP says this:



But really, I think there were enough forces on Trump's side to investigate this stuff and bring it before Trump-appointed judges. At the very least, the word would have gotten out.

This is a study conducted by someone in the DOJ.

I plan on reading it. Certainly some will discredit the author and the study, but I'll reserve judgement until after I read it.
 
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But I'm posting assuming Trump will get off the hook. It's wild that this can happen and we'll punish the little guys and shrug our shoulders and go home.

"The little guys" acted on their own volition, and they need to be prosecuted. The initial rioters never attended Trump's speech on the Mall.
 
They're arguing over whether or not you can impeach a president after he's left office.
44 voted against holding a trial - Thought they had already held that vote

video from today's presentation: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4944591/user-clip-house-impeachment-video-evidence

This is an interesting read, to me: Source: https://constitution.congress.gov/

The House has impeached twenty individuals: fifteen federal judges, one Senator, one Cabinet member, and three Presidents.17 The consensus reflected in these proceedings is that impeachment may serve as a means to address misconduct that does not necessarily give rise to criminal sanction. The types of conduct that constitute grounds for impeachment in the House appear to fall into three general categories: (1) improperly exceeding or abusing the powers of the office; (2) behavior incompatible with the function and purpose of the office; and (3) misusing the office for an improper purpose or for personal gain.18 Consistent with scholarship on the scope of impeachable offenses,19 congressional materials have cautioned that the grounds for impeachment do not all fit neatly and logically into categories because the remedy of impeachment is intended to reach a broad variety of conduct by officers that is both serious and incompatible with the duties of the office.20​

The Framers purposefully left equal room for interpretation as well as equal vagueness to make proving such infractions as difficult as required. Very wise, in my opinion, to offer the option of other options than impeachment.


Article I, Section 3, Clause 7:

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.​

The issue here is if "Impeachment" is successive, in that it takes removal "from Office" to then have the power for "disqualification", or if "disqualification" can be exacted separately if "the Party" is no longer in office.

Also being "liable and subject" ... "according to Law" would be the next logical step for proponents of punishment if "Impeachment" is not successful. If said parties fail to proceed in this manner, then I question their motives in pursuing impeachment.

I do think that "the President can do anything" before leaving office is a weak argument for proponents of impeachment, since the "President" is "liable and subject" after leaving office. This, as I interpret that sentence of Clause 7.
 
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They brought up the precedent of the impeachments of Belknap and Blount. Blount had been expelled when he was impeached (by founding fathers) and Belknap resigned and was tried afterwards. The Blount case was dismissed because they didn't think he counted as a civil servant as a Senator, but not because he had already been expelled. The Belknap case went forward after voting by majority that they had jurisdiction, but they didn't hit the 2/3 to convict, according to wikipedia, because so many thought they didn't have jurisdiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_W._Belknap#Senate_trial_and_acquittal

Sounds a lot like the case we're in now.
 
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