Election Aftermath

[Spartanmack]

Oh! I had not thought of that. Never mind. I’ll just anticipate a Republican win in the White House that will be contested by the Democrats in office with a fervor that makes 2020 seem like a couple of moms with signs outside of a Meijer petitioning for fresher organic produce.

we already had that in 2016 with elected officials, appointed officials and government employees breaking laws, lying to the American people and conspiring to overturn an election outcome they didn't like. That's way worse than what happened January 6th.

 

[Spartanmack]

It's a good idea. But that's what will keep it from happening. That and lender lobbying.

Letting interest rates in the economy rise and not subsidizing student loans would be a better idea. Maybe forcing universities to disclose the earnings power of each degree would also help deter people from spending 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars on worthless degrees.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Letting interest rates in the economy rise and not subsidizing student loans would be a better idea. Maybe forcing universities to disclose the earnings power of each degree would also help deter people from spending 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars on worthless degrees.

I think at this point we know that doesn't work. It should, but it doesn't. Stories of adjunct professors barely scraping by or even living out of their car in one publicized story isn't steering people towards picking better paying majors.

It should be part of that magical highschool class I've heard proposed 1000 times that explains basic finance. But I don't think that would stop 18-22 year olds from 'believing in themselves'.

They borrow $100k they can't pay back, that's a problem for them. They collectively borrow $1T they can't pay back, that could cascade and become a problem for the rest of us.

 

[Gulo Blue]

$1.6 trillion
45 million borrowers
108% delinquency or default rate
$120 billion in default

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=7e36d09b281f

 

[Spartanmack]

I think at this point we know that doesn't work. It should, but it doesn't. Stories of adjunct professors barely scraping by or even living out of their car in one publicized story isn't steering people towards picking better paying majors.

It should be part of that magical highschool class I've heard proposed 1000 times that explains basic finance. But I don't think that would stop 18-22 year olds from 'believing in themselves'.

They borrow $100k they can't pay back, that's a problem for them. They collectively borrow $1T they can't pay back, that's a bubble that could become a problem for the rest of us.

those aren't the stories people need to hear. they need to hear about all the dropouts and people who graduated with worthless degrees who can't get jobs and are living in their parents basements hiding from creditors and blaming someone else for their problems.

It shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us, particularly those of us who did the responsible thing and are paying back our student debt and ESPECIALLY for those who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it and are instead making a living in the trades, starting a business, going to work for a family business, etc.

Edit: maybe add "college degree" to the anti-discrimination laws and make it illegal to require a college degree for any job that doesn't require some specific skill you can only get with a particular degree.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Both sets of stories could add perspective. Neither work. People knew that almost nobody that tries gets in the NFL and then 30 for 30's Broke came along and showed that even making it doesn't ensure you make it. Either way sports camps/travelling teams with parents shelling out what they can because they think their kid is going to make it is a booming business.

 

[Michchamp]

those aren't the stories people need to hear. they need to hear about all the dropouts and people who graduated with worthless degrees who can't get jobs and are living in their parents basements hiding from creditors and blaming someone else for their problems.

It shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us, particularly those of us who did the responsible thing and are paying back our student debt and ESPECIALLY for those who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it and are instead making a living in the trades, starting a business, going to work for a family business, etc.

Edit: maybe add "college degree" to the anti-discrimination laws and make it illegal to require a college degree for any job that doesn't require some specific skill you can only get with a particular degree.

People don't need to hear stories based on reality, is what you're saying?

 

[Michchamp]

Both sets of stories could add perspective. Neither work. People knew that almost nobody that tries gets in the NFL and then 30 for 30's Broke came along and showed that even making it doesn't ensure you make it. Either way sports camps/travelling teams with parents shelling out what they can because they think their kid is going to make it is a booming business.

It's the same thing with white collar jobs... the economy doesn't produce enough of those, and the estimates of what college graduates earn are often illusory - if not entirely made up by Universities' marketing departments.

And I thought the thing about needing more American kids to go into Computer Science, Engineering, Chemistry, etc. was largely debunked by the glaring fact that salaries in those fields weren't dramatically increasing, providing evidence of demand? Did you guys miss that?

Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, etc. aren't pushing for more H1-B visas from India because there aren't enough American programmers, it's because they don't want to PAY American programmers.

And how come liberal arts degrees are only worthless now, but weren't prior to like 1980, when all this reactionary stuff attacking education in general started?

Do people think majoring in engineering or CS leaves you ready to work in those fields? They don't understand that you learn on the job, always have, and what you majored in matters a hell of a lot less than they want to pretend?

 

[Spartanmack]

People don't need to hear stories based on reality, is what you're saying?

they need to hear the far more common stories is what I'm saying. they don't need more lies on top of the lies they've already been told. most of these people who can't pay off their loans aren't grad students and adjunct professors. They're dropouts and un- or underemployed people who overpaid for degrees that were never going to pay for the outrageous cost of those degrees.

 

[Michchamp]

they need to hear the far more common stories is what I'm saying. they don't need more lies on top of the lies they've already been told. most of these people who can't pay off their loans aren't grad students and adjunct professors. They're dropouts and un- or underemployed people who overpaid for degrees that were never going to pay for the outrageous cost of those degrees.

Are they more common?

Why should they bear the cost of "degrees that were never going to pay for the outrageous cost of those degrees"?

Why not the people who lent them the money?

Who is supposed to be the expert at judging risk here, the banks and lenders or some 18-year-old kid?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I think AI is already chipping away at what was white collar jobs. What happens to a society when everyones needs could (not are) be met by just 95% of the available work force?

 

[Spartanmack]

Are they more common?

Can't say for sure but if the number of borrowers with student loan debt is really 45mm, with $120B in default, I'd be willing to bet a considerable sum that they're more common than underpaid adjunct professors. If each person in default owed $1mm, that's 120k people in default - that would be a lot of adjunct professors if they were the most common story. If it was a more realistic number like average debt of $200k then you're talking about 600k people in default. Seems impossible to me that there would be more grad students living on Raman noodles than dropouts, un- and underemployed people struggling to pay for their overpriced degrees. Would you disagree with that?

Why should they bear the cost of "degrees that were never going to pay for the outrageous cost of those degrees"?

Because they agreed to pay the price of the degree. I think most 18 year old would understand the consequences if they were told what they were likely to get from their tuition dollars.

Why not the people who lent them the money?

Who is supposed to be the expert at judging risk here, the banks and lenders or some 18-year-old kid?

Because they agreed to pay the money they borrowed back to the people who agreed to lend it to them. I think if the schools told the 18 year olds they probably weren't going to make enough money to pay back $200k+ in tuition with a degree in art history, gender or ethnic studies, etc they would understand.

I'd be fine with changing disclosure requirements to include income projections and loan repayment schedules but I'm definitely more in favor of addressing the issue of obscene tuition rates. College isn't a right, as a society we don't need everyone to have a degree and it's definitely not something we should be paying for collectively.

 

[Gulo Blue]

We should commoditize student loans to the point I can pick out students I don't think are going to make it and short their loans.

 

[Spartanmack]

We should commoditize student loans to the point I can pick out students I don't think are going to make it and short their loans.

I think I heard Bill Gates say something about that. Let me know when you get to that chapter. (that's sarcasm)

 

[Spartanmack]

maybe we should look at giving trade school tuition assistance to un- and underemployed people with student debt - at least for those that haven't been able to get elected to Congress.

 

[Gulo Blue]

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/25/9713...-immediate-calls-for-military-backup-on-jan-6

Sounds like somebody lied to Congress. Capitol Police Chief says she called for the National Guard 6 times starting at 12:58 PM, House Sargent-at-Arts said there was no call until after 2 PM.

Paul Irving, who says the calls were later, was the House Sargent-at-Arms since 2012. Not some Trump appointment.

 

[zyxt9]

The electrical and plumbing trades especially are a better financial route to individual success than probably 90% of college degrees. Earn money while learning, eventually earn at least $100 / hr, in some cases $250 / hr. But it is "hard labor" to too many of the young people today who have been raised to believe life is easy, just tell Mommy and Daddy and they will make the bad people stop by going to the teacher / principal / superintendent / politician who has the power to make it stop.

It will take quite awhile for AI and robots to take over the work done by electricians and plumbers. Those are two areas I would encourage any youth to pursue for long-term job security. Hell, robots are more likely to be surgeons before electricians or plumbers.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Hell, robots are more likely to be surgeons before electricians or plumbers.

This is a great insight and I agree.

 

[byco42]

The electrical and plumbing trades especially are a better financial route to individual success than probably 90% of college degrees. Earn money while learning, eventually earn at least $100 / hr, in some cases $250 / hr. But it is "hard labor" to too many of the young people today who have been raised to believe life is easy, just tell Mommy and Daddy and they will make the bad people stop by going to the teacher / principal / superintendent / politician who has the power to make it stop.

It will take quite awhile for AI and robots to take over the work done by electricians and plumbers. Those are two areas I would encourage any youth to pursue for long-term job security. Hell, robots are more likely to be surgeons before electricians or plumbers.

I?ve even considered making the transition, if the profession would have me.

 

[zyxt9]

IMO, college loans should only be allowed IF the student is working at a corporation and that corporation is backing the loan. In that way, the student is following a path more equivalent to the Trades, where they are sponsored by a company they feel is a good fit and the company vets their abilities before agreeing to supporting their education. The student learns more hands-on how the Real World works, the company is able to analyze if they made a correct hire, or maybe the student would be a better fit in another area and therefore pursue a different major that fits their specific abilities.

The student is working at a lower initial pay as they are being compensated by the company paying for their education. The understanding is that after finishing their degree they will earn more money. Also, degrees would include credits for working on the job to help reduce the number of credit hours in the classroom.

We should all be capable of recognizing what is taught in college does not translate to what is done in the Real World. Hell, my friend who is a Chemical Engineer I asked how often he uses the higher math he learned to get that degree and he said maybe once a year, and it always requires pulling out the text book or computer search for the correct formula and a bit of time relearning how to do it. IMO we will soon just have AI do any of those calculations. His job is far more about making sure system processes are running correctly, something not covered even once in the college classroom.

What is the current percentage of graduates who work in a field related to their college degree? More often than not they work in a completely different field. So what is their degree worth? Why are companies requiring a BA/BS degree for jobs that have zero need of a degree? Hell, they will even take a BA/BS in a completely unrelated area of study over someone with a decade of experience all because the computerized HR filters will kick out any resume without a BA/BS degree.