Ferguson, MO

[Monster]

After all this evidence has come out and we've heard Wilson's full account, people are still acting like a crime has been committed. Still protests. Meanwhile, the dead thug's step father was recorded screaming, "burn this bitch down!" and no charges have been filed for inciting a riot. In what world does any of this make sense?

Oh, and people getting upset because the troublemakers burned down black businesses? Would it have made more sense to target white businesses? Would all of these people stop justifying the response to the non indictment? I see more racism out of them than I do the cops.

 

[Spartanmack]

You refer to "the real problem". I'm asking what you think this is about.

Like I said, I think this is about a "problem" that in reality isn't a problem. This "problem" is perpetuated by activists and the media through grossly negligent misreporting, harping on unsubstantiated claims and disregard for facts and evidential matter that refutes those claims.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Like I said, I think this is about a "problem" that in reality isn't a problem. This "problem" is perpetuated by activists and the media through grossly negligent misreporting, harping on unsubstantiated claims and disregard for facts and evidential matter that refutes those claims.

So what's the problem? You're just talking about it here. You haven't said what it is. You said it really isn't a problem and it's perpetuated by activists. But what is it?

 

[Monster]

I think Brown's mother sums it up best when she said that she doesn't think Wilson wanted to kill Mike, but he was wanting to kill someone. Not sure where this comes from. It seems like this is the same type of thinking that all of the protesters have.

Also, i hate how people are saying he's demonizing Brown. No, he's telling his story. When I got jumped years ago, I would have characterized my attackers the same way. I thought I was going to die and they attacked me like wild animals with no conscience. It's not demonizing. When you think you are going to die, you go into survival mode. That's what Wilson did.

Does anyone honestly think if Mike Brown was white, and did the same thing, that he wouldn't still be dead? This whole "stop killing us" shit has to stop unless they include all other races.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's not false equivalence. It's an irrelevant distraction.

These people would have you believe that police pose one of if not the biggest threat to minorities. Saying it's not even close and pointing out what is in fact a much bigger problem is neither irrelevant or a distraction.

 

[Gulo Blue]

These people would have you believe that police pose one of if not the biggest threat to minorities. Saying it's not even close and pointing out what is in fact a much bigger problem is neither irrelevant or a distraction.

This is a strawman argument followed by something even more irrelevant.

People would have you believe this is about gun rights but cancer is a much bigger problem.

(The way this analogy works is like this: I mentioned gun rights even though nobody's actually talking about gun rights. Similarly, I haven't heard anyone say police are one of the biggest threats to minorities. Furthermore, even if someone out there has said that, it's certainly a fringe argument, not one of the main arguments. Then I went on to talk about cancer, because it's unrelated to gun rights, similar to how black-on-black violence is unrelated to whether or not cops are a threat to minorities.)

 

[Gulo Blue]

Also, i hate how people are saying he's demonizing Brown. No, he's telling his story.

FYI, I think he literally said that when Brown approached him, he had a face "like a demon".

 

[Monster]

These people would have you believe that police pose one of if not the biggest threat to minorities. Saying it's not even close and pointing out what is in fact a much bigger problem is neither irrelevant or a distraction.

Blame the police for one's own actions. Makes sense.

 

[Monster]

FYI, I think he literally said that when Brown approached him, he had a face "like a demon".

Well, whenever it happened, Brown punched a cop and tried to take his gun. I doubt he had a happy face. Pretty sure he would have been making a nasty face. I mean, you saw his robbery? He looked like a guy who has absolute lack of fear and no regard for authority.

Besides, how is "his face was like a demon" or "he was like hulk hogan" tinged with racism? I hear none of that.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Does anyone honestly think if Mike Brown was white, and did the same thing, that he wouldn't still be dead? This whole "stop killing us" shit has to stop unless they include all other races.

There is a race blind part of it. Not the part most people are talking about now, but there was a point where the discussion had more to do with the militarization of police than race.

This is a multifaceted thing. We're so used to breaking things into just two sides. It's not like that though. There isn't one side that's right and one side that's wrong. Spartanmack thinks this is about the perception that police are one of the biggest threats to minorities. I think the peaceful protesters are mostly concerned with bias in the system, the looters are assholes, and the violent protesters are probably a mix of plain assholes and assholes that think there's bias in the system.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Well, whenever it happened, Brown punched a cop and tried to take his gun. I doubt he had a happy face. Pretty sure he would have been making a nasty face. I mean, you saw his robbery? He looked like a guy who has absolute lack of fear and no regard for authority.

Besides, how is "his face was like a demon" or "he was like hulk hogan" tinged with racism? I hear none of that.

I was specifically responding to the thing about demonizing. If "like a demon" isn't demonizing, then what is?

 

[Spartanmack]

This is a strawman argument followed by something even more irrelevant.

People would have you believe this is about gun rights but cancer is a much bigger problem.

(The way this analogy work is like this: I mentioned gun rights even though nobody's actually talking about gun rights. Similarly, I haven't heard anyone say police are one of the biggest threats to minorities. Furthermore, even if someone out there has said that, it's certainly a fringe argument, not one of the main arguments. Then I went on to talk about cancer, because it's unrelated to gun rights, similar to how black-on-black violence is unrelated to whether or not cops are a threat to minorities.)

It's not a strawman at all - the message that police kill black kids is all over the place and the way the media has covered this story (just like with Sean Bell, Eric Garner, etc, etc) has allowed it to thrive if not added fuel to the fire. And it's not followed by something even more irrelevant. There is an epidemic of violence in the country that young black men face. Contrary to what the media would have us believe, that problem is not the police. Overwhelmingly, the problem is other young black males. In a conversation about the threat of violence against young black males, the real source of that threat is not irrelevant.

 

[Gulo Blue]

And it's not followed by something even more irrelevant. There is an epidemic of violence in the country that young black men face. Contrary to what the media would have us believe, that problem is not the police. Overwhelmingly, the problem is other young black males. In a conversation about the threat of violence against young black males, the real source of that threat is not irrelevant.

That's like looking at the study where white sounding names get more interviews than black sounding names on the exact same resumes and saying the real problem is the economy.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's not a strawman at all - the message that police kill black kids is all over the place and the way the media has covered this story

Where? Where are the Ferguson stories about how police are the biggest threat to minorities?

 

[Spartanmack]

There is a race blind part of it. Not the part most people are talking about now, but there was a point where the discussion had more to do with the militarization of police than race.

This is a multifaceted thing. We're so used to breaking things into just two sides. It's not like that though. There isn't one side that's right and one side that's wrong. Spartanmack thinks this is about the perception that police are one of the biggest threats to minorities. I think the peaceful protesters are mostly concerned with bias in the system, the looters are assholes, and the violent protesters are probably a mix of plain assholes and assholes that think there's bias in the system.

I'm not breaking it into two sides and I'm not saying there aren't peaceful protesters with different concerns - although I do think they're unjustified in using this case as an example and that's largely due to the misreporting of the case in the media. I do think it's about the perception that cops pose a threat to minorities for many if not most of the protesters (certainly those looting and burning buildings) and again, that is largely due to the gross negligence of the media.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's like looking at the study where white sounding names get more interviews than black sounding names on the exact same resumes and saying the real problem is the economy.

it's nothing like that.

 

[Gulo Blue]

it's nothing like that.

It's exactly like that. The root issue is bias. How protesters have been treated, what gear the police used, things they were recorded saying... Just because violence is involved doesn't mean if you can point to a larger source of violence then there shouldn't be a discussion of this violence.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I do think it's about the perception that cops pose a threat to minorities for many if not most of the protesters (certainly those looting and burning buildings) and again, that is largely due to the gross negligence of the media.

You've made this clear, but what media? If this is the main thing, then I should be able to type "Ferguson" into google news and see a bunch of stories like that.

 

[Spartanmack]

Where? Where are the Ferguson stories about how police are the biggest threat to minorities?

It's everywhere. Have you heard what Rev Al said about this? the Brown's lawyer? How many times have you heard/seen "Hands up! Don't shoot!" or "I am Mike Brown" or "Stop Killing Us". How about the Michelle Alexander piece? It starts with this "Many black families woke up this morning knowing that the lives of their children are worth less than the lives of white children in America. The deep distrust of law enforcement in their own communities that so many African Americans feel just got deeper last night..."

 

[zyxt9]

Like the father crying about how his son's character was crucified somehow?

Dude, I get that he may have been a good kid most of the time, but don't act like he was somehow an innocent angelic tragedy. Robbery though petty shows his character wasn't ideal, but punching a cop who has not struck first then reaching for the cops gun... the kid crucified his own character with those actions.

Some people get away with far worse, certainly, but if you put yourself in a situation through your own choices and actions then you are gambling you won't have this result. Kid made very poor choices and paid a very steep price, but instead of using this as an example of how even seemingly small bad choices can have incredibly bad consequences, let's cry about how his character was crucified.

I've done some really stupid things, but throwing the first punch at a cop or otherwise instigating a confrontation with one would never enter my thought process. That speaks volumes for this kid's character.