Ferguson, MO

[zyxt9]

Champ...you mean to tell me a cop says to you that you violated a law and are under arrest, YOUR instinct will be to run away and potentially get shot and killed? Or will you comply with the arrest and go to court?

As a lawyer, you would actually advise people to NOT comply with the police and obey...the law??? That is your professional advice?

 

[Michchamp]

Champ...you mean to tell me a cop says to you that you violated a law and are under arrest, YOUR instinct will be to run away and potentially get shot and killed? Or will you comply with the arrest and go to court?

As a lawyer, you would actually advise people to NOT comply with the police and obey...the law??? That is your professional advice?

As usual, real life experience doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to what you think should happen.

no, but after seeing all these videos of cops killing people, including unarmed people (durr... that's only 6% of the time) can you blame someone for running from the cops?

I knew a kid in my high school... drunk, driving, fled from the cops after the stopped him or tried to pull him over. His dad was a prominent lawyer in Metro Detroit.

Did the cops ram his car off the road, and choke him to death or shoot him in the back for not obeying their orders to stop? fuck no. they did what they were supposed to: let him go, and arrest him at a safer time. same thing ALL cops should do.

fleeing from the police doesn't warrant a death sentence, you lunatic.

And I'd love to see how you'd react if you had a couple drinks, fight with your wife, or a bad day and some cop showed up and barked orders at you... sure you'd immediately salute and grovel in the ground, apologizing to the officer?

We've given police in this country authority far beyond their means to exercise appropriately, and shown few of them will suffer any consequences for violating the public's trust.

Police budgets should absolutely be defunded and that money should go to social services that prevent people from turning to crime and drug addiction in the first place.. ounce of prevention prevents a pound of the cure.

 

[tomdalton22]

Police budgets should absolutely be defunded and that money should go to social services that prevent people from turning to crime and drug addiction in the first place.. ounce of prevention prevents a pound of the cure.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[Michchamp]

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

there's not really even much of the cure.

When I lived in Chicago, the police cleared well under 50% of all murders. Maybe it was even less than a third. Just like "whatever."

Yet they consistently got pay raises, and were well-paid to begin with, during my tenure there.

Similar story in every city in America. for the amount of money we throw at police departments, crime is unaffected.

 

[byco42]

As usual, real life experience doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to what you think should happen.

no, but after seeing all these videos of cops killing people, including unarmed people (durr... that's only 6% of the time) can you blame someone for running from the cops?

According to the reported incidents in the Washington Post Database, five unarmed Black people were fatally shot by police fleeing the scene in 2020. And five white people as well. In 2021, four to date, according to the Database. One Black, one white and two Hispanics.

Google it. The Link does not work.

I expect that most of not all of these police officers were charged with a crime. Or at the incident was investigated thoroughly.

This practice has been illegal throughout the nation for 35 years. Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)

Link

?Held...such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.?

 

[tinselwolverine]

According to the reported incidents in the Washington Post Database, five unarmed Black people were fatally shot by police fleeing the scene in 2020. And five white people as well. In 2021, four to date, according to the Database. One Black, one white and two Hispanics.

Google it. The Link does not work.

I expect that most of not all of these police officers were charged with a crime. Or at the incident was investigated thoroughly.

This practice has been illegal throughout the nation for 35 years. Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)

Link

?Held...such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.?

On cop shows I never see a fleeing suspect shot dead as the cops are apprehending said suspect - they always seem to thwart the flight without resorting to firearms.

Perhaps police training should be taught by Mark Harmon and LL Cool J.

 

[Spartanmack]

As usual, real life experience doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to what you think should happen.

no, but after seeing all these videos of cops killing people, including unarmed people (durr... that's only 6% of the time) can you blame someone for running from the cops?

fleeing from the police doesn't warrant a death sentence, you lunatic.

And I'd love to see how you'd react if you had a couple drinks, fight with your wife, or a bad day and some cop showed up and barked orders at you... sure you'd immediately salute and grovel in the ground, apologizing to the officer?

We've given police in this country authority far beyond their means to exercise appropriately, and shown few of them will suffer any consequences for violating the public's trust.

Police budgets should absolutely be defunded and that money should go to social services that prevent people from turning to crime and drug addiction in the first place.. ounce of prevention prevents a pound of the cure.

As usual, real life experience doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to what you think happens in real life. You're so far off base, you're not even in the stadium.

 

[Spartanmack]

there's not really even much of the cure.

When I lived in Chicago, the police cleared well under 50% of all murders. Maybe it was even less than a third. Just like "whatever."

Yet they consistently got pay raises, and were well-paid to begin with, during my tenure there.

Similar story in every city in America. for the amount of money we throw at police departments, crime is unaffected.

now do public education.

 

[zyxt9]

As usual, real life experience doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to what you think should happen. blah, blah...

no

blah, blah

Thank you for answering the question. Now, if you, as a lawyer, do not recommend people running from the police when they attempt to arrest them, then we can look at the fact that 99% of the "police murders" took place after the suspect began resisting or fleeing from the police.

That aside, I do agree there needs to be reform for how police engage and do not disengage when they should, resulting in people being shot and potentially killed. However, all of those events are secondary AFTER the suspect began resisting arrest or fleeing.

This despite all the comments from BLM about how Black Americans have to have "the talk" with their kids.

As a lawyer, would you not have the expectation of "the talk" including, even emphasizing, that the receiver of "the talk" should not resist in any way. That they should comply with the police demands or risk being killed. Is that an unreasonable expectation that such information would be included in "the talk"?

Yet, time and again the suspect in question is seen resisting arrest and attempting to flee the police, and then people become upset that the police - usually after attempting to use force and then tasers - end up resolving that their last option available is their sidearm?

Regardless of whether the use of their sidearm should not happen in these circumstances, the first domino to fall is the suspect resisting arrest. So, as you said, we should work on the initial problem, correct? That would be to not resist or flee from police, which you agree with as a lawyer.

That said, to some extent I agree many of the past year's police shootings would have benefitted from a Reform where the police use more self-control and recognizing they will get the guy later. The Atlanta Wendy's shooting is a prime example.

However, the incident where the guy was violating a restraining order and had a warrant for his arrest, fought with the cops, tasers had no effect, goes into vehicle where he had previously admitted to having a deadly weapon...a vehicle which also had two children...and was in the process of potentially fleeing with those children...do these demonstrate circumstances where the police are left with no further options in no small part due to the potential and probable harm to 3rd party individuals? Would you agree?

If you agree, how does Defunding police save those people? We already are seeing dramatic increases in crime from merely drawing down police presence...what would the crime rates be without any police? Keep in mind, no police will mean no arrests for murders...something White Supremacists would absolutely love to have afforded to them. How many additional Black Americans will be killed if White Supremacists realize it is essentially Open Season for them to murder Black Americans without any concern of being arrested?

I, for one, do not wish to see Black Americans, Asians, Hispanics, Jews, or other non-whites become the focus of these attacks. Yet I am considered a white racist POS to many Liberals who are supporting "Defund the Police". No, I just recognize the long term way that plays out and I actually prefer the minorities remain protected by the police, while realizing they are imperfect humans who will still likely make unfortunate mistakes. To be clear, they should be held fully accountable for such mistakes, as Chauvin has been.

 

[zyxt9]

On cop shows I never see a fleeing suspect shot dead as the cops are apprehending said suspect - they always seem to thwart the flight without resorting to firearms.

Perhaps police training should be taught by Mark Harmon and LL Cool J.

I especially love how at least one person on the team already knows the exact path the suspect will take to escape and the suspect unwittingly slams into an arm, flying tackle, or sometimes an object swung at them.

We need more cops like that!

 

[Michchamp]

now do public education.

except unlike cops we keep paying teachers less, increasing class sizes, etc. without paying them more.

 

[Michchamp]

...

If you agree, how does Defunding police save those people? We already are seeing dramatic increases in crime from merely drawing down police presence...what would the crime rates be without any police? ...

We are? How do you prove that causation?


Personally, I don't think fewer police have anything to do with it (Are there even fewer police?). I think more people being out of work due to COVID & turning to crime out of desperation have more to do with that.

 

[Spartanmack]

except unlike cops we keep paying teachers less, increasing class sizes, etc. without paying them more.

Like I said, what happens in real life doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to what you think happens in real life.

 

[tinselwolverine]

except unlike cops we keep paying teachers less, increasing class sizes, etc. without paying them more.

Wait...WHAT?

 

[Michchamp]

well, education and education spending... yeah, that's more complicated.

I guess we'll completely change topics and start discussing that in the Ferguson, MO thread because of some smartass comment?

For the record, according to the article:

The average teacher in America is starting to get paid more, but the economic downturn caused by the pandemic could jeopardize any progress made, the largest national teachers? union has warned.

In its annual report that ranks and analyzes teacher salaries and education spending by state, released Monday, the National Education Association estimates that the national average teacher salary for the 2020-21 school year is $65,090?a 1.5 percent increase from the previous year.
​

getting paid more isn't really getting paid more when the cost of living is increasing... along with class sizes and the associated workload. context here.

It's been pretty widely reported that other cuts in spending mean teachers pay out-of-pocket for classroom supplies and other things like that now.

We should make cops buy their own guns (and even harder to come by these days, their own bullets). There would be less police shootings then right? Maybe that's not such a bad idea...


I still don't know who looks at teachers and thinks they're overpaid, or making too much money. Again, reality not lining up with what some people think and say...

 

[tomdalton22]

I think police officers get paid about the same as teachers.

My guess is police salaries are going to go up significantly in the near future. Who would want to be a cop right now? When nobody wants to be a cop, the quality of applicant will go down, and the salary will go up.

 

[Michchamp]

I think police officers get paid about the same as teachers.

My guess is police salaries are going to go up significantly in the near future. Who would want to be a cop right now? When nobody wants to be a cop, the quality of applicant will go down, and the salary will go up.

In Chicago, rank and file officers salaries are set by years in the force; and they range from $48K from a new officer to (with a $20K jump in year 2) to $99K after 30 years of service. (link) I think you only need a HS diploma or GED to apply... so it's not like they're paying off education debt. By many accounts, they bank a lot of OT as well... and whatever other graft they get access to.

According to this, under the current Chicago union contract, beginning teachers make a base salary of just over $56,000 a year, while the most senior teachers with extra credentials make $108,242 a year.

I picked Chicago because I was most familiar with these such issues there.

I googled police salaries in a couple Chicago suburbs and it looks like they're higher, but the sources don't appear authoritative.

I assume it's a better job, being a suburban cop, than a big city one. teachers in the burbs probably make more too. probably a nationwide trend.

 

[tomdalton22]

In Chicago, rank and file officers salaries are set by years in the force; and they range from $48K from a new officer to (with a $20K jump in year 2) to $99K after 30 years of service. (link) I think you only need a HS diploma or GED to apply... so it's not like they're paying off education debt. By many accounts, they bank a lot of OT as well... and whatever other graft they get access to.

According to this, under the current Chicago union contract, beginning teachers make a base salary of just over $56,000 a year, while the most senior teachers with extra credentials make $108,242 a year.

I picked Chicago because I was most familiar with these such issues there.

I googled police salaries in a couple Chicago suburbs and it looks like they're higher, but the sources don't appear authoritative.

I assume it's a better job, being a suburban cop, than a big city one. teachers in the burbs probably make more too. probably a nationwide trend.

Minimum requirements for hire:
Candidates cannot enter into the Police Academy until they reach the age of 21 and may not enter after the age of 40.
60 semester hours (90 quarter hours) from an accredited college or university, or 3 years active duty, or one year active duty and 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours)
A valid Driver?s License
A valid FOID
Actual Resident of the City of Chicago
Permanent resident of the United States (Citizenship is NOT required)

 

[Michchamp]

Minimum requirements for hire:
Candidates cannot enter into the Police Academy until they reach the age of 21 and may not enter after the age of 40.
60 semester hours (90 quarter hours) from an accredited college or university, or 3 years active duty, or one year active duty and 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours)
A valid Driver?s License
A valid FOID
Actual Resident of the City of Chicago
Permanent resident of the United States (Citizenship is NOT required)

Where is that from? So you can be a cop with 60 semester hours of college course work (I think that's two years' worth?), OR "3 years active duty"...? Active duty in what?

 

[Spartanmack]

so you're own obviously biased research from one of the largest teacher's unions in the country is proving you're wrong. Even the NEA isn't saying teachers are being paid less. And yes, a 1.5% increase last year may be below inflation, but guess what, so was the average pay increase across the entire economy. According to the article you posted, the current offer on the table for Chicago teachers would make them among the highest paid teachers in the country - and the Chicago public school system is a massive failure, sounds like maybe they're overpaid and are about to become WAY overpaid. Of course the teachers are demanding more - they want a 5% annual increase for 5 years - inflation has been over 3% in just 4 of the last 20 years and hasn't been over 3% since 2011. Maybe the requested massive annual increases are to cover the cost of not commuting to work because they refuse to teach in person and are failing even more than they were before as a result.

don't forget, teachers only work about 9 months a year - so they work less, take far less risk and are paid way more than cops - and most of them, even a bunch of the lazy ones go and get some unnecessary and useless masters degree online so they automatically get a pay raise in accordance with their union contract.

Also, stop saying it's been widely reported and then throw in whatever opinion you want to pass off as fact. Education spending in America is going up, teachers salaries are going up. There isn't an epidemic of police brutality and murder, cops aren't racist and they're not summarily executing unarmed people - even the ones that are having a bad day.