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Finally! A list of BLM demands!

the policies I advocate are extremely effective at what they are designed for - reducing crime. They are remarkable successes, not failures in any way. Getting rid of them won't do anything to help the addiction epidemic but it will most certainly have a negative impact on crime.

As for your claim about millions of nonviolent offenders caught up in the system, there are a maximum of 550k people incarcerated for drug related crimes - including violent offenders. I have no idea what % of those offenders are nonviolent but it's definitely not all of them. That's also true for people on parole and probation. So to say there are millions of nonviolent victims in the system is probably as incorrect as saying the system is racially biased.

Do you know what's great for reducing crime? reducing the demand for illegal drugs. The policies you advocate are really good at mass incarceration and keeping poor black people in jail for crimes white people commit at the same rate. If we lock people up at exponentially higher rates than other G8 countries, why do we have more crime? How do these countries manage to be safer than us without locking up so many citizens?

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes
 
As a bit of a math nerd, I hate to see the word exponential used that way.
 
As a bit of a math nerd, I hate to see the word exponential used that way.

It bug The hell out of me that so many people don't understand the simple concept that there never was a year zero, or when decades, centuries and millenia actually end and begin.
 
Do you know what's great for reducing crime? reducing the demand for illegal drugs. The policies you advocate are really good at mass incarceration and keeping poor black people in jail for crimes white people commit at the same rate. If we lock people up at exponentially higher rates than other G8 countries, why do we have more crime? How do these countries manage to be safer than us without locking up so many citizens?

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes

is it? aren't relapse rates over 80%? doesn't seem that effective - not as effective as locking up criminals. do we have higher addiction rates than other G8 countries? or are you saying we have higher crime rates because we put more bad guys in prison? how much more crime do we have than other G8 countries? I don't think we the difference is all that great - we have more gun related homicides but I'm pretty sure we are right in line with most developed nations on violent crime. you're not less safe here than you are in the G8.

we have half a million people in prison on drug related crimes, that's 0.17% of the population - not something I would call mass incarcerarion. and they're not all in there for possession.
 
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I'm not going to carry on a discussion with tomdalton because he has no understanding of addiction or the science behind it.

OK...for the sake of your argument...let's say addiction is a disease that can be cured with treatment.

What is the success rate for treatment?
What is the success rate for treating people that DON'T want to be treated?
What percentage of drug users are actually addicted compared to the number that just use drugs because they like to?
 
is it? aren't relapse rates over 80%? doesn't seem that effective - not as effective as locking up criminals. do we have higher addiction rates than other G8 countries? or are you saying we have higher crime rates because we put more bad guys in prison? how much more crime do we have than other G8 countries? I don't think we the difference is all that great - we have more gun related homicides but I'm pretty sure we are right in line with most developed nations on violent crime. you're not less safe here than you are in the G8.

we have half a million people in prison on drug related crimes, that's 0.17% of the population - not something I would call mass incarcerarion. and they're not all in there for possession.

Relapse rates are generally 40 to 60% but that depends on what kind of treatment you get, inpatient or outpatient. Also, a relapse is just using one more time, not a becoming a chronic user but in a lot of cases it may take more than one stint in rehab. Methadone treatment is effective but controversial since it's replacing one more dangerous addiction for one that is less dangerous but it's well regulated and drug dealers aren't profiting from it, people aren't stealing or committing crimes to gain access to it. You could argue that a lot of property crime is drug related as well.


If we don't have mass incarceration, then mass incarceration must not exist to you since we have the highest rate in the world and we're no more safe than other economically advanced nations. of course poorer nations are more violent, a lot of them are that way due to the demand for illegal drugs.

we have a higher homicide rate than any G8 country other than russia, but we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Shouldn't that mean that we'd have the lowest murder rate?

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/10/homicides-per-100000-in-g8-countries.html



My argument all along has been that treatment would be more effective than imprisonment. Treatment would do more to reduce usage than imprisonment, the social cost would be less vs imprisonment. Lowering the demand for drugs is much more effective than lowering the supply, the war on drugs has been going on for 40 years and it's done little if anything to reduce usage which is what drives this whole illegal economy and promotes murder at astonishing rates in the US and also in the countries that supply drugs to us.
 
OK...for the sake of your argument...let's say addiction is a disease that can be cured with treatment.

What is the success rate for treatment?
What is the success rate for treating people that DON'T want to be treated?
What percentage of drug users are actually addicted compared to the number that just use drugs because they like to?

"for the sake of argument, addiction is a disease that can be cured with treatment."


wow
 
Relapse rates are generally 40 to 60% but that depends on what kind of treatment you get, inpatient or outpatient. Also, a relapse is just using one more time, not a becoming a chronic user but in a lot of cases it may take more than one stint in rehab. Methadone treatment is effective but controversial since it's replacing one more dangerous addiction for one that is less dangerous but it's well regulated and drug dealers aren't profiting from it, people aren't stealing or committing crimes to gain access to it. You could argue that a lot of property crime is drug related as well.


If we don't have mass incarceration, then mass incarceration must not exist to you since we have the highest rate in the world and we're no more safe than other economically advanced nations. of course poorer nations are more violent, a lot of them are that way due to the demand for illegal drugs.

we have a higher homicide rate than any G8 country other than russia, but we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Shouldn't that mean that we'd have the lowest murder rate?

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/10/homicides-per-100000-in-g8-countries.html



My argument all along has been that treatment would be more effective than imprisonment. Treatment would do more to reduce usage than imprisonment, the social cost would be less vs imprisonment. Lowering the demand for drugs is much more effective than lowering the supply, the war on drugs has been going on for 40 years and it's done little if anything to reduce usage which is what drives this whole illegal economy and promotes murder at astonishing rates in the US and also in the countries that supply drugs to us.

The statistic is misleading - here are the relapse rates by drug:
- alcohol and heroine: 88% (another source says heroine is over 90%)
- crack cocaine: 84%
- cocaine: 55%
- hallucinogens/inhalants: 40% - these are people taking LSD, PCP and huffing paint, sniffing glue, inhaling nitrous oxide and household products.

http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/relapsing-sobriety-people-relapse-sober-living
http://healthresearchfunding.org/shocking-heroin-relapse-statistics/

So that 40-60% stat is heavily watered down by a wide range of drugs that themselves are nowhere near epidemic levels. Rehab for the real scourges on society are by any reasonable assessment, total failures.
 
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It bug The hell out of me that so many people don't understand the simple concept that there never was a year zero, or when decades, centuries and millenia actually end and begin.

The parties when they made the transition from BC to AD must have been epic.
 
The statistic is misleading - here are the relapse rates by drug:
- alcohol and heroine: 88% (another source says heroine is over 90%)
- crack cocaine: 84%
- cocaine: 55%
- hallucinogens/inhalants: 40% - these are people taking LSD, PCP and huffing paint or glue.

http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/relapsing-sobriety-people-relapse-sober-living
http://healthresearchfunding.org/shocking-heroin-relapse-statistics/

So that 40-60% stat is heavily watered down by a wide range of drugs that themselves are nowhere near epidemic levels. Rehab for the real scourges on society are by any reasonable assessment, total failures.

of course there's variance by drug, you asked about general rehab rates. Heroin is usage is at record levels, largely because of doctors prescribing highly addictive opiates and then cutting patients off so they turn to heroin for a cheaper and easier alternative. Methadone maintenance combined with therapy is the most effective method of treating heroin addiction.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/partb.pdf

look at the graphs on page 3/4

treating heroin use reduces utilization which in turn reduces HIV, property crime, and imprisonment.
 
I don't answer questions where the premise is so ungodly stupid.

These are reasonable questions to ask.

What is the success rate for treatment?
What is the success rate for treating people that DON'T want to be treated?
What percentage of drug users are actually addicted compared to the number that just use drugs because they like to?
 
I have no idea what this thread is about now

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or that other thread.

Whoa.
 
These are reasonable questions to ask.

What is the success rate for treatment?
What is the success rate for treating people that DON'T want to be treated?
What percentage of drug users are actually addicted compared to the number that just use drugs because they like to?

the premise is that addiction is treatable "for the sake of argument"

if you want numbers, go ahead and google them. Not believing addiction is a disease is a nonstarter for a discussion
 
the premise is that addiction is treatable "for the sake of argument"

if you want numbers, go ahead and google them. Not believing addiction is a disease is a nonstarter for a discussion

I have....and I wasn't able to find any credible stats regarding how many users are actually addicted and how many are just casual users. I was also not able to find any stats on success rate for people that don't want to quit. These are very valid questions to ask if we are going to stop putting users in jail for buying drugs and just treating them....don't you think?
 
I have....and I wasn't able to find any credible stats regarding how many users are actually addicted and how many are just casual users. I was also not able to find any stats on success rate for people that don't want to quit. These are very valid questions to ask if we are going to stop putting users in jail for buying drugs and just treating them....don't you think?

of course you're not going to find those stats, who in their right mind is even going to conduct that kind of study?
 
goddamnit researchers! get out there and prepare a study that TomDalton can google and post to prove his point. keep it all under one URL for pete's sake, and use small words and a 4th grade reading level so it doesnt hurt anyone's brain.
 
One of the excuses you hear with regard to the Catholic pedophile scandal is that back in the 70's, they thought pedophilia was a disease they could cure. I guess that line of thinking hasn't gone away completely, because there are still efforts to cure it.
 
goddamnit researchers! get out there and prepare a study that TomDalton can google and post to prove his point. keep it all under one URL for pete's sake, and use small words and a 4th grade reading level so it doesnt hurt anyone's brain.

I don't have to prove my point...I'm not the one that contends that treating these people will solve the problem...sbee is. He wants to stop putting them in jail, drastically reduce sentences for selling drugs and treat the users. I am just asking him for some kind of evidence that this will work.
 
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