Frank Ragnow Interview

[LKP]

I do agree that Flowers injury hurt us, but Flowers isn't an impact rush guy, IMO. He is good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't nowhere near elite (think Bosa Brothers). I don't think he is even a step below elite (think Shaq Barrett, Frank Clark). He falls into the next group with the Melvin Ingram's of the world. A borderline pro bowler, but not an All-Pro. Honestly Okwara's emergence offset whatever we lost from Flowers.

Nick Williams though was a terrible signing. He has been a rotational guy at best his entire career. He had a decent pass rushing year before he hit free agency, but we should not have expected him to be anything, but a nickel rusher. Shelton has never shown more then being a space eater and he was just average at that. Was pretty much the same thing for us when he played. Going into the season that D-Line just didn't have enough NFL talent. Bob Quinn either grossly over-estimated the talent we had on the D-Line, or grossly over-estimated Patricia's coaching ability.

Flowers is a consistent pass rusher. We would have had 3 if Flowers stayed healthy with Okwara and Griffen. They never played together. Williams had a nice 2019 but Quinn didn't give him a huge contract. Maybe they expected to add one in the draft but then went Okudah route. And J Okwara injury killed any potential there. No Davis blitzing for some reasons or much blitzing at all but probably due to coverage issues by LBs and safeties. And not like FA is chocked full of stud pass rushing DTs anyway.

The pass rush could have been good enough or had potential to give us a better defense. Things/injuries derailed that or things weren't executed and schemes were bad for it.

Let's see what 2021 brings and who stays. Flowers, Hand and J Okwara for sure is a start. Now add more

 

[tomdalton22]

Yeah but you are just saying its going to rain every day with no rhyme or reason. The Lions live in Seattle but still you have no support for what you said. You have to say why to fully be "Right"

And things change. Based on what we saw, things should have happened one way. But injuries or unexpected regression or not even matching previous play is a thing that can change things dramatically. Desmond Trufant perfect example, solid CB even in 2019. Shit the bed in 2020 due to new scheme, injuries etc.

Vaitai. Showed potential and played tackle. Lions move him to guard and he has a bad foot injury. Unexpected

And nobody cares if you are right because you weren't right knowing why the season failed. You just guessed and said its because the Lions always suck.

But now its a new regime. So even more guess work and looking at players on other rosters trying to correlate that to the Lions. Seeing what draft picks do etc

we talk about this shitty team all of the time. People that are almost always down on the Lions give reasons over and over. I have said from day one that the defense stinks and I thought Patricia was a terrible coach. I have always said that the DL and LBs suck. I consistently say that I don't like the way they draft. What exactly are you guys looking for?

 

[detroit1811]

More excuses dude....really?

youll see this year...this defense will not be average. They can be happy all they want. Happy doesnt make you good.

I saw nothing different after bevell took over....same shitty defense.

This defense probably won't be average. We are going to gut it and go with a bunch of young guys. I understand that aren't difference makers, but some of the guys we cut will resurface elsewhere and play key roles. Guys like Duron Harmon, Trufant, Coleman, Okwara, Griffen, probably even Davis will be starters or key contributors on whatever team they play for in 2021. Guys like Nick Williams, Ragland, and Shelton will have roles on a team in 2021(whether our team or someone elses) . We won't be able to properly replace most of them because of our cap situation. That is okay though because we are setting ourselves up for future success.

A good coach would've played out players to their strength and not try to fit a square peg in a round hole. With better coaching, this defense had enough talent to be middle of the road in 2020, IMO.

 

[detroit1811]

we talk about this shitty team all of the time. People that are almost always down on the Lions give reasons over and over. I have said from day one that the defense stinks and I thought Patricia was a terrible coach. I have always said that the DL and LBs suck. I consistently say that I don't like the way they draft. What exactly are you guys looking for?

I didn't read these forums much last year so I honestly don't know what was said. I'm just saying to have a credible opinion if needs to be backed up. If you said our D-Line and LB'ers were going to be horrible and Patricia was a terrible coach that was pretty accurate and a good reason why we sucked last year.

 

[LKP]

we talk about this shitty team all of the time. People that are almost always down on the Lions give reasons over and over. I have said from day one that the defense stinks and I thought Patricia was a terrible coach. I have always said that the DL and LBs suck. I consistently say that I don't like the way they draft. What exactly are you guys looking for?

Not just saying they suck. Saying why. And some of them dont

Nobody expected everything to go off the rails that badly. And like 1811 said, they could have been average defense with better coaching

We'll see who they keep and who plays well and what players we cut play well elsewhere too

 

[detroit1811]

Flowers is a consistent pass rusher. We would have had 3 if Flowers stayed healthy with Okwara and Griffen. They never played together. Williams had a nice 2019 but Quinn didn't give him a huge contract. Maybe they expected to add one in the draft but then went Okudah route. And J Okwara injury killed any potential there. No Davis blitzing for some reasons or much blitzing at all but probably due to coverage issues by LBs and safeties. And not like FA is chocked full of stud pass rushing DTs anyway.

The pass rush could have been good enough or had potential to give us a better defense. Things/injuries derailed that or things weren't executed and schemes were bad for it.

Let's see what 2021 brings and who stays. Flowers, Hand and J Okwara for sure is a start. Now add more

You are correct, but I think the basis of this disagreement stated about going into the season. We didn't have Griffen then, and Okwara was nothing more then a #3 DE at best being counted on to start. Jarrad Davis looked like our 2nd best rusher going into the year(Maybe Collins). That is a pretty terrible job of this front office, IMO. Also I should've worded the Nick Williams signing differently. It wasn't that it was a terrible signing, just the expectations were off. He is a backup three tech who can rush in nickel situations. Guys like that have roles. Not starting roles. Our two starting DT's from last year wouldn't start for probably half the league and they both wouldn't start for any one team.

 

[LKP]

You are correct, but I think the basis of this disagreement stated about going into the season. We didn't have Griffen then, and Okwara was nothing more then a #3 DE at best being counted on to start. Jarrad Davis looked like our 2nd best rusher going into the year(Maybe Collins). That is a pretty terrible job of this front office, IMO. Also I should've worded the Nick Williams signing differently. It wasn't that it was a terrible signing, just the expectations were off. He is a backup three tech who can rush in nickel situations. Guys like that have roles. Not starting roles. Our two starting DT's from last year wouldn't start for probably half the league and they both wouldn't start for any one team.

We never got to see the full potential of their pass rush skills

From coaching
From Flowers, Hand and Okwara injuries. Nick Williams deal with a shoulder injury. Shelton missed 4-5 games too. The pass rush potential was stymied for various reasons. Was it a top 10 pass rush, probably not but it could have been good enough. But we'll never know

And everything stacks on top of everything. If LBs and CBs and safeties covered a little better, quick releases wouldn't have beat us so badly which makes the pass rush look better too. Like WRs and TEs and RBs got open so quick it was mind boggling. Pass rush would be right there then a QB would find a WIDE OPEN weapon on a deep in cut, like almost every play they needed. It was crazy bad coverage/miscommunication. And then the run D problems add to that too. Can do quicker stuff on 3rd and short

We'll see how some of these players do on other teams and some of the young ones on 2021 Lions

 

[dtroitlionsfan951]

We never got to see the full potential of their pass rush skills

From coaching
From Flowers, Hand and Okwara injuries. Nick Williams deal with a shoulder injury. Shelton missed 4-5 games too. The pass rush potential was stymied for various reasons. Was it a top 10 pass rush, probably not but it could have been good enough. But we'll never know

And everything stacks on top of everything. If LBs and CBs and safeties covered a little better, quick releases wouldn't have beat us so badly which makes the pass rush look better too. Like WRs and TEs and RBs got open so quick it was mind boggling. Pass rush would be right there then a QB would find a WIDE OPEN weapon on a deep in cut, like almost every play they needed. It was crazy bad coverage/miscommunication. And then the run D problems add to that too. Can do quicker stuff on 3rd and short

We'll see how some of these players do on other teams and some of the young ones on 2021 Lions

Injuries can?t always be counted as bad luck. Trufant had a knack for being injury prone when he came to us and he got injured. That?s not a shock. Part of being a good player in the NFL is being healthy. Also one year of a ?decent? pff grade doesn?t mean you should rely on that either. Nick Williams was near 30. He had a 67.0 rating which is just borderline being a somewhat decent player. But if you look at any of his previous grades the last 4-5 years he was around 50-52. Which is abysmal. Jamie Collins was actually a good signing as was a trade for Duron Harmon. Vaitai also did not have a track record of good pff grades and was used in certain situations in Philadelphia. Where he could be successful, where does that translate to being an expensive full time starter? You really think you pay guys big money and long term deals for like a 3-4 game stretch? Hell no. It?s dumb business.

 

[LKP]

Injuries can?t always be counted as bad luck. Trufant had a knack for being injury prone when he came to us and he got injured. That?s not a shock. Part of being a good player in the NFL is being healthy. Also one year of a ?decent? pff grade doesn?t mean you should rely on that either. Nick Williams was near 30. He had a 67.0 rating which is just borderline being a somewhat decent player. But if you look at any of his previous grades the last 4-5 years he was around 50-52. Which is abysmal. Jamie Collins was actually a good signing as was a trade for Duron Harmon. Vaitai also did not have a track record of good pff grades and was used in certain situations in Philadelphia. Where he could be successful, where does that translate to being an expensive full time starter? You really think you pay guys big money and long term deals for like a 3-4 game stretch? Hell no. It?s dumb business.

Never said injuries were bad luck. But they can be a reason you suck. Trufant was a solid player. Hamstring wasn't an injury that plagued him. He broke something in 2019. Trufant year was shot due to recurring hamstring injuries, we lost a solid player because of it

Williams had one year agreed. He wasn't the only solution at DT. More Hand inside. I think Collins and Davis they blitzed less than any imagined too. JACK injuries affected where Collins was, where we used Hand and how much we used Williams. Williams improved as year went on (early shoulder injury). Flowers, Okwara, Griffen, J Okwara, Hand were the big pass rushers. Williams was a role player in that but alot got hurt there. Plus scheme issues, plus run game

We'll see what Williams does

Vaitai got paid for potential. He can be LT on A Super bowl winning team. RT as well. He is a road grader who hurt his foot. We'll see what he does in 2021. Vaitai and Oline were a little above average in protection but run game wasn't there. Various factors there too including some scheme.

 

[mhughes0021]

hate to bring it up again....but the Goff situation made it impossible to put together a defense this year. I said this defense had the ability to show promise if you could get Okwara, Flowers and Griffen on the field together. Now that we have Goff theres a good chance 2 of those pieces arent even on the team next year. Okwara MIGHT come back if he wants to continue to play with his brother. If he just chases a pay day hes gone.

Flowers Shelton Griffen
Okwara Rookie Collins FA
Okudah Rookie Walker Amani

....its a decent start...its not average....but its a start. Take Griffen and Okwara away from that and its a flaming pile...

 

[LKP]

hate to bring it up again....but the Goff situation made it impossible to put together a defense this year. I said this defense had the ability to show promise if you could get Okwara, Flowers and Griffen on the field together. Now that we have Goff theres a good chance 2 of those pieces arent even on the team next year. Okwara MIGHT come back if he wants to continue to play with his brother. If he just chases a pay day hes gone.

Flowers Shelton Griffen
Okwara Rookie Collins FA
Okudah Rookie Walker Amani

....its a decent start...its not average....but its a start. Take Griffen and Okwara away from that and its a flaming pile...

Everyone literally hated Okwara before this year. Now we can't live without him lol. And Griffen is super old and chasing a ring now or going back to Vikings. We can replace Griffen.

We will have cap space at 180 million (5 over) and can make 30 million in cuts so 25 under with Goff. You could sign both Griffen and Okwara if you wanted too. I don't think they will want to sign Griffen or he will want to come back either.

I'm not concerned with having an average defense in 2021. We are going to suck in 2021. Average defense won't cut it with a worse QB and new WRs and unproven run game other than Swift. Oline, Swift and Hock have to learn a new offense too. Growing pains for sure for everyone.

We can get a good one by 2022 though and 2023 and beyond.

 

[tomdalton22]

Everyone literally hated Okwara before this year. Now we can't live without him lol. And Griffen is super old and chasing a ring now or going back to Vikings. We can replace Griffen.

We will have cap space at 180 million (5 over) and can make 30 million in cuts so 25 under with Goff. You could sign both Griffen and Okwara if you wanted too. I don't think they will want to sign Griffen or he will want to come back either.

I'm not concerned with having an average defense in 2021. We are going to suck in 2021. Average defense won't cut it with a worse QB and new WRs and unproven run game other than Swift. Oline, Swift and Hock have to learn a new offense too. Growing pains for sure for everyone.

We can get a good one by 2022 though and 2023 and beyond.

I think it would be a miracle for them to have a good defense in 2022. The defense has no high end talent on it now. Maybe Okudah turns out to be a pro bowl caliber CB. They need to add high quality players on every level. They will have to hit HRs on every draft pick and every FA signing. That typically doesn't happen. My guess is the earliest the defense is any good will be 2023 and more likely 2024. The offense is just as far away.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think it would be a miracle for them to have a good defense in 2022. The defense has no high end talent on it now. Maybe Okudah turns out to be a pro bowl caliber CB. They need to add high quality players on every level. They will have to hit HRs on every draft pick and every FA signing. That typically doesn't happen. My guess is the earliest the defense is any good will be 2023 and more likely 2024. The offense is just as far away.

Need reminding last to 19 after we drafted Suh. Just need that one really good interior lineman. 2009 team was as bad as 2020.

 

[detroit1811]

I think it would be a miracle for them to have a good defense in 2022. The defense has no high end talent on it now. Maybe Okudah turns out to be a pro bowl caliber CB. They need to add high quality players on every level. They will have to hit HRs on every draft pick and every FA signing. That typically doesn't happen. My guess is the earliest the defense is any good will be 2023 and more likely 2024. The offense is just as far away.

I would have to disagree with a majority of that. The offense is not far away at all. Decker had an awesome year at LT and Ragnow is a top three center. Jonah Jackson started strong, but faded down the stretch, but you can expect that from rookies. He should be a solid player for us. Between Stenberg, Dahl, Vatai, and Crosby you have good competition on the right side with two of those guys already proving to be serviceable (Dahl and Crosby). As it stands that is a top half of the league O-Line. We have a Pro Bowl TE who is only getting better, and behind him I really like the upside in Hunter Bryant. We have DeAndre Swift at RB who had a very solid rookie campaign. Even if Kerryon Johnson can't regain his speed he is still a reliable set of hands and one of the best blocking backs in the league. We need a #2 RB behind Swift, but that can be plugged with a low end FA RB (Jamaal Williams. At QB we have a player who has proven his low end play is an average starter and his high end play is a top 5-8 QB. If he gives us somewhere in between we will be better off then half the league. Our WR position is a joke. Cephus is like the only guy we have, but I do like him. I think he profiles as a #2/#3 guy and will play that role well. If we franchise Golladay and draft Smith/Chase/Waddle we would be set.

QB Goff
RB Swift, Jamaal Williams, Kerryon Johhson
FB Cabina?
TE Hockenson, Bryant
WR Golladay, Smith/Chase/Waddle, Cephus, Keelan Cole?
LT Decker
LG Jackson, Dahl
C Ragnow
RG Vatai, Stenberg
RT Crosby

That offense would be a pretty good unit, IMO. Nobody on that list is over 27 and all key pieces are signed for 2+ years. Not saying that is the way to take this off-season just pointing out the offense isn't that far away.

On defense, there is no reason why they can't be a solid unit (top 15) by 2022. Re-sign Okwara, and Davis (I really think he can be a good player). Maybe grab some cheap guys with some upside in FA (Desmond King, Malik Hooker). Hit defense hard in the draft after the first round.

Going into Free Agency in 2022 and we would have an abundance of cap space to grab a couple impact players on defense. The offense would not need much outside of maybe an O-lineman or Two(Assuming Goff works out). Re-sign Tracy Walker (I think he has a really good year). So sign maybe Jonathan Allen (They can't keep all those D-Lineman), and Marcus Lattimore (Saints will still be in cap hell). You go into the draft as it stands today with 2 1sts (One likely very high).

DE Flowers, J. Okwara,
DT Jonathan Allen, draft pick (first)
DE R Okwara, draft pick (2nd)
LB Davis, Draft Pick (2nd), draft pick (1st)
CB Okudah, Lattimore, Amani, King
S Tracy Walker, Hooker, Harris, Draft Pick (3rd round)

Obviously you have to hit on draft picks and everyone knows that. Not saying this is what will happen, just a quick breakdown that we are not crazy far away. If our cap situation was screwed beyond this year and we had little draft capital I would say we would be. That isn't the case. Campbell and Holmes need to make major strides in year two and at least be competing for a wild card spot.

 

[tomdalton22]

I would have to disagree with a majority of that. The offense is not far away at all. Decker had an awesome year at LT and Ragnow is a top three center. Jonah Jackson started strong, but faded down the stretch, but you can expect that from rookies. He should be a solid player for us. Between Stenberg, Dahl, Vatai, and Crosby you have good competition on the right side with two of those guys already proving to be serviceable (Dahl and Crosby). As it stands that is a top half of the league O-Line. We have a Pro Bowl TE who is only getting better, and behind him I really like the upside in Hunter Bryant. We have DeAndre Swift at RB who had a very solid rookie campaign. Even if Kerryon Johnson can't regain his speed he is still a reliable set of hands and one of the best blocking backs in the league. We need a #2 RB behind Swift, but that can be plugged with a low end FA RB (Jamaal Williams. At QB we have a player who has proven his low end play is an average starter and his high end play is a top 5-8 QB. If he gives us somewhere in between we will be better off then half the league. Our WR position is a joke. Cephus is like the only guy we have, but I do like him. I think he profiles as a #2/#3 guy and will play that role well. If we franchise Golladay and draft Smith/Chase/Waddle we would be set.

QB Goff
RB Swift, Jamaal Williams, Kerryon Johhson
FB Cabina?
TE Hockenson, Bryant
WR Golladay, Smith/Chase/Waddle, Cephus, Keelan Cole?
LT Decker
LG Jackson, Dahl
C Ragnow
RG Vatai, Stenberg
RT Crosby

That offense would be a pretty good unit, IMO. Nobody on that list is over 27 and all key pieces are signed for 2+ years. Not saying that is the way to take this off-season just pointing out the offense isn't that far away.

On defense, there is no reason why they can't be a solid unit (top 15) by 2022. Re-sign Okwara, and Davis (I really think he can be a good player). Maybe grab some cheap guys with some upside in FA (Desmond King, Malik Hooker). Hit defense hard in the draft after the first round.

Going into Free Agency in 2022 and we would have an abundance of cap space to grab a couple impact players on defense. The offense would not need much outside of maybe an O-lineman or Two(Assuming Goff works out). Re-sign Tracy Walker (I think he has a really good year). So sign maybe Jonathan Allen (They can't keep all those D-Lineman), and Marcus Lattimore (Saints will still be in cap hell). You go into the draft as it stands today with 2 1sts (One likely very high).

DE Flowers, J. Okwara,
DT Jonathan Allen, draft pick (first)
DE R Okwara, draft pick (2nd)
LB Davis, Draft Pick (2nd), draft pick (1st)
CB Okudah, Lattimore, Amani, King
S Tracy Walker, Hooker, Harris, Draft Pick (3rd round)

Obviously you have to hit on draft picks and everyone knows that. Not saying this is what will happen, just a quick breakdown that we are not crazy far away. If our cap situation was screwed beyond this year and we had little draft capital I would say we would be. That isn't the case. Campbell and Holmes need to make major strides in year two and at least be competing for a wild card spot.

you are falling into the same trap that LKP falls into. There are about 15 things that have to go right for your scenario to fall into place.

The OL is decent. I'll give you top 1/2 of the league. QB is a huge question mark. RB is a question mark as well. You assume that Swift is good. I think he might be, but not sure. Hock might be good too, but I'm not sure. They don't have a single starting WR. Golladay is good but at what price. Since they are starting over, I think they will let him go.

That said, if Goff is good...like top 10 good, they are closer than I am giving them credit for. But that has to happen. If not, the offense will be 2-3 years away with no defense to help carry the team.

 

[detroit1811]

you are falling into the same trap that LKP falls into. There are about 15 things that have to go right for your scenario to fall into place.

The OL is decent. I'll give you top 1/2 of the league. QB is a huge question mark. RB is a question mark as well. You assume that Swift is good. I think he might be, but not sure. Hock might be good too, but I'm not sure. They don't have a single starting WR. Golladay is good but at what price. Since they are starting over, I think they will let him go.

That said, if Goff is good...like top 10 good, they are closer than I am giving them credit for. But that has to happen. If not, the offense will be 2-3 years away with no defense to help carry the team.

The only thing that has to fall in place, so to speak, are the draft picks being successful. They can make the money to franchise tag Golladay. Okwara can be re-signed (having his brother definitely helps). Walker turning back into a good player is an if, but one I am personally very confident in. Retaining Davis is not a big key. Okudah being at least solid is something I am very confident in. Having a lot of cap space in 2022 is possible if we cut the dead weight. Everything else I mentioned if fairly straightforward.

Draft picks turning out well for team success is basically a given for any franchise. If Holmes does not draft well we won't have a good offense and defense his entire time here. Just saying if he does hit on his picks he can turn this team around by 2022 (wild card) with the way this team is set up.

 

[tomdalton22]

The only thing that has to fall in place, so to speak, are the draft picks being successful. They can make the money to franchise tag Golladay. Okwara can be re-signed (having his brother definitely helps). Walker turning back into a good player is an if, but one I am personally very confident in. Retaining Davis is not a big key. Okudah being at least solid is something I am very confident in. Having a lot of cap space in 2022 is possible if we cut the dead weight. Everything else I mentioned if fairly straightforward.

Draft picks turning out well for team success is basically a given for any franchise. If Holmes does not draft well we won't have a good offense and defense his entire time here. Just saying if he does hit on his picks he can turn this team around by 2022 (wild card) with the way this team is set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fjEViOF4JE

 

[LKP]

Not everything has to be a home run. A good defense or offense can have a couple below average players starting. Agree we do need some game changers though..2 on defense and 1 or 2 on offense

 

[detroit1811]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fjEViOF4JE

I'm not sitting here saying they are going to be good. I will have to see the team that is put together. All I'm saying is the opportunity is there and you have said absolutely nothing to refute that. Teams drafting well isn't a pipe team, that's what good teams do. if Holmes does that in 2021 and 2022 we have an excellent shot at turning this thing around as soon as 2022.

 

[mhughes0021]

lmao we started talking about how to build this team in 2023 just to be average. This is why you dont put rebuilds on hold with crappy retreds! Shit should have been blown up this year and get your rookie QB a year of experience.

Im starting the 2022 draft page now...with the #1 overall pick the Lions select!!!!! From the university of transfer portal Tyler Shough. Played at Oregon last year....hes transfering. 6-5 faster version of Herbert.