Game 9: Lions @ Bears Thread

[boogerlovejoy]

https://youtu.be/GxK_CHPqUxw

I think its laughable that these two, or anyone, will flip flop back and forth on their opinion of a coach due to one or two games.

I don't know how it isn't painfully obvious to anyone that watches the Lions on a weekly basis that the biggest problem this team has is defensive TALENT. That's not saying Campbell hasn't made mistakes. Not saying that AG hasn't made mistakes. But holy fucking shit......week in and week out we get ZERO pressure up the middle.....against the run or pass. Our LB's suck. Hutchinson has been a big upgrade, but there is ZERO pressure from any other DE. We miss tackles, miss assignments, jump routes at the wrong time, take stupid penalties....etc.

We have approximately 27 defensive players on the 53 man roster. I'd guess 10 of them are fringe NFL players at all. Another 7 are guys that are starting that shouldn't be. Another 6 are playing prominent roles that shouldn't be. That leaves us Okudah, Hutch, Rodrigo and McNeil.

Does anyone on this board think that another NFL coach is going to win with this defense?? If so, what do you think that coaches record would be?

 

[tigermud]

I think its laughable that these two, or anyone, will flip flop back and forth on their opinion of a coach due to one or two games.

I don't know how it isn't painfully obvious to anyone that watches the Lions on a weekly basis that the biggest problem this team has is defensive TALENT. That's not saying Campbell hasn't made mistakes. Not saying that AG hasn't made mistakes. But holy fucking shit......week in and week out we get ZERO pressure up the middle.....against the run or pass. Our LB's suck. Hutchinson has been a big upgrade, but there is ZERO pressure from any other DE. We miss tackles, miss assignments, jump routes at the wrong time, take stupid penalties....etc.

We have approximately 27 defensive players on the 53 man roster. I'd guess 10 of them are fringe NFL players at all. Another 7 are guys that are starting that shouldn't be. Another 6 are playing prominent roles that shouldn't be. That leaves us Okudah, Hutch, Rodrigo and McNeil.

Does anyone on this board think that another NFL coach is going to win with this defense?? If so, what do you think that coaches record would be?

IMO they should have at least 2 more wins then they do if not for grit not being to get out of his own way. And I do like they guy and still think he's eventually going to succeed.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

IMO they should have at least 2 more wins then they do if not for grit not being to get out of his own way. And I do like they guy and still think he's eventually going to succeed.

The best part of this post is that you actually edited it, and it still came out nearly unreadable.

 

[tomdalton22]

I think its laughable that these two, or anyone, will flip flop back and forth on their opinion of a coach due to one or two games.

I don't know how it isn't painfully obvious to anyone that watches the Lions on a weekly basis that the biggest problem this team has is defensive TALENT. That's not saying Campbell hasn't made mistakes. Not saying that AG hasn't made mistakes. But holy fucking shit......week in and week out we get ZERO pressure up the middle.....against the run or pass. Our LB's suck. Hutchinson has been a big upgrade, but there is ZERO pressure from any other DE. We miss tackles, miss assignments, jump routes at the wrong time, take stupid penalties....etc.

We have approximately 27 defensive players on the 53 man roster. I'd guess 10 of them are fringe NFL players at all. Another 7 are guys that are starting that shouldn't be. Another 6 are playing prominent roles that shouldn't be. That leaves us Okudah, Hutch, Rodrigo and McNeil.

Does anyone on this board think that another NFL coach is going to win with this defense?? If so, what do you think that coaches record would be?

I agree that the Lions D is mostly devoid of talent. But isn't the part in bold mostly due to lack of preparation / coaching?

 

[sggatecl]

I agree that the Lions D is mostly devoid of talent. But isn't the part in bold mostly due to lack of preparation / coaching?

To an extent I would agree. But players aren't always bad because of lesser physical talent. Game knowledge plays a part, hence why despite his physical prowess, no coach seems to be able to get Jarrad Davis to stop over running his assignment every game. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[LKP]

I agree that the Lions D is mostly devoid of talent. But isn't the part in bold mostly due to lack of preparation / coaching?

They can prep and teach them correctly and then the players just not being talented or smart enough to execute too. Also backups playing hurts the pass rush and safety position right now though Joseph is doing well, learning but does have missed assignments as a rookie

So we don't know if another coach could get more out of them. Eventually a young team like this can learn and do better in all that as we add talent too.

 

[LKP]

Stud pass rushing DT, stud LB, stud CB and another stud Safety. That would be nice. But you can make it work with a bunch of good/solid ones too with a few playmakers like Hutch. Lions probably need 1-2 more real playmakers though.

 

[tomdalton22]

To an extent I would agree. But players aren't always bad because of lesser physical talent. Game knowledge plays a part, hence why despite his physical prowess, no coach seems to be able to get Jarrad Davis to stop over running his assignment every game. I'm sure there are other examples.

I agree. I guess my point is you can't defend the coaching when nobody really knows if they are doing a good job or are they clueless.

 

[LKP]

I agree. I guess my point is you can't defend the coaching when nobody really knows if they are doing a good job or are they clueless.

Can't criticize too harshly either then if you don't know the whole story of how they are coaching. Can criticize like game management and play calling at a high level (but not really since there are details to the play calls against the opponent we are not privy too). So it will always just boil down to wins and losses. 2 wins in a row shows some improvement. Let's see if they can make it 3

 

[boogerlovejoy]

I agree that the Lions D is mostly devoid of talent. But isn't the part in bold mostly due to lack of preparation / coaching?

Do you have kids?

Have you ever told a child to stop doing something.....only they do it over and over? Kinda the same thing.

Do you think a player false starting is coaching, or did the player make a mistake? I'm pretty sure these guys can count to 2 or 3.

Jason Kelce snapped a ball over Hurt's head yesterday.....is that the coaches fault? He's a center, should Siriani pull him aside to practice some more?

Players make mistakes. Even great players. No coach as ever coached a kid to miss a tackle, or to miss an assignment.....but bad players do it more often. We have a lot of bad players defensively, so those kinds of things are going to happen more often......sometimes, regardless of coaching.

 

[tigermud]

The best part of this post is that you actually edited it, and it still came out nearly unreadable.

I read it just fine.

 

[tomdalton22]

Do you have kids?

Have you ever told a child to stop doing something.....only they do it over and over? Kinda the same thing.

Do you think a player false starting is coaching, or did the player make a mistake? I'm pretty sure these guys can count to 2 or 3.

haha

you ever been to a restaurant and some other kids are being terrible but your kids are well behaved? This is probably because you taught your kids (coached them) while the other parents are shitty parents and aren't doing what they are supposed to do.

Bad players probably make more mistakes, but well coached teams make fewer mistakes.

Like I said, we don't know if these coaches can coach...do we?

 

[LKP]

Do they have less mistakes because they are more talented and more experienced though. I think if we had Andy Reid, Belicheck, the ghost of Vince Lombardi, Don Shula as our coaches, the Lions would still make mistakes because they are young players.

Did Sean McVay forget how to coach or did the Rams lose talent?

 

[mhughes0021]

So as a loyal observer id agree the Lions D has 0 talent. But on paper lets dive into that:
DE:
Hutchinson top 2 pick
Harris Injured but i think we'd agree hes a good starter and compliment to Hutch
Okwara filling in is a 3rd rd pick that was drafted due to HUGE upside/potential and his pressure ratio

DT:
Mcneil 3rd rd pick for a NT is pretty highly rated
Countless rd 2 DT picks

CB:
Top 3 pick in Okudah
Mike Hughes first rd pick

S:
Tracy Walker 3rd rd pick
Jospeh 3rd rd pick

LB:
Anazalone is garbage
Rodrigo is a little better than garbage...outproducing for a 6th rd pick

So that said....when you have that much early rd projected talent on your defense. And with their powers combined... they all suck. Is it coaching?

 

[LKP]

So as a loyal observer id agree the Lions D has 0 talent. But on paper lets dive into that:
DE:
Hutchinson top 2 pick
Harris Injured but i think we'd agree hes a good starter and compliment to Hutch
Okwara filling in is a 3rd rd pick that was drafted due to HUGE upside/potential and his pressure ratio

DT:
Mcneil 3rd rd pick for a NT is pretty highly rated
Countless rd 2 DT picks

CB:
Top 3 pick in Okudah
Mike Hughes first rd pick

S:
Tracy Walker 3rd rd pick
Jospeh 3rd rd pick

LB:
Anazalone is garbage
Rodrigo is a little better than garbage...outproducing for a 6th rd pick

So that said....when you have that much early rd projected talent on your defense. And with their powers combined... they all suck. Is it coaching?

It's not zero talent. But it's less talent/health than the top 10 defenses

Some big injuries in there. DT in Levi and Paschal DE/DT injured again. Hutch good but a rookie and not a game changer yet but getting there. Charles Harris was a first round bust that became good here last year but hurt this year. Romeo hurt and was consistent pass rusher. Julian fits at certain time with talent. Cominsky 3rd or 4th rounder with good athletic traits. McNeil not a pass rusher but is playing in the role due to injuries.

Okudah less experienced due to injuries his first two years. Walker injured. Joseph is talented with ball skills and that has shone but still very inexperienced not expected to play year 1. Hughes is a first round bust

Anzalone a day 2 pick but stinks from Saints.

Talent is more than just draft position. Like Rodrigo is only solid because of his smarts and tackling form. Size and speed lack for him but he plays better than Jarrad Davis who is an athletic freak but just overruns everything and doesn't have tackling form.

We'll see what AG and the rest of the defensive staff can do this year and once they add a big more talent next year and get more experience. AG is learning on the job too. He was just a DB coach and had to learn how to be a coordinator too. Nobody to coach the coaches, they just have to figure it out. I wouldn't call Wash, Shepphard or Duker great coaches either. Brunell inexperienced QB coach. Duce and Randle El are good coaches. Ben Johnson innovative and having success early. Fraley seems like a solid Oline coach that the players like but not a great one. New TE coach that traded Hock taking over for Johnson who moved to OC

 

[tomdalton22]

Do they have less mistakes because they are more talented and more experienced though. I think if we had Andy Reid, Belicheck, the ghost of Vince Lombardi, Don Shula as our coaches, the Lions would still make mistakes because they are young players.

Did Sean McVay forget how to coach or did the Rams lose talent?

they did lose some talent but the D has been solid. I would blame a lot of their woes on poor QB play.

 

[mhughes0021]

Talent is more than just draft position.

Id disagree. Talent literally is draft position. Its where GMs and coaches think you deserve to go based on talent with a little bit of availability/injury history tied in.

After that its scheme and how the player is groomed....which is 100% coaching.

If Rodrigo is the only one playing better than their expectation....i think its more of a coaching issue than talent issue.

Even our top 3 1st round picks have 0 star power right now. Okudah decides to test FA when his contract is done...no one is paying him top 5 CB money.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Id disagree. Talent literally is draft position. Its where GMs and coaches think you deserve to go based on talent with a little bit of availability/injury history tied in.

After that its scheme and how the player is groomed....which is 100% coaching.

If Rodrigo is the only one playing better than their expectation....i think its more of a coaching issue than talent issue.

Even our top 3 1st round picks have 0 star power right now. Okudah decides to test FA when his contract is done...no one is paying him top 5 CB money.

Wait, so Josh Rosen is more talented than Lamar Jackson?

 

[LKP]

they did lose some talent but the D has been solid. I would blame a lot of their woes on poor QB play.

Stafford too has the elbow issue and now concussion into week 2 of it. Wofford was beyond garbage so agree there with that last loss.

Glad they are losing though in case need a trade up for our QB of the future. Stafford got his ring and proved all the haters wrong.

 

[LKP]

Id disagree. Talent literally is draft position. Its where GMs and coaches think you deserve to go based on talent with a little bit of availability/injury history tied in.

After that its scheme and how the player is groomed....which is 100% coaching.

If Rodrigo is the only one playing better than their expectation....i think its more of a coaching issue than talent issue.

Even our top 3 1st round picks have 0 star power right now. Okudah decides to test FA when his contract is done...no one is paying him top 5 CB money.

I'd say Joseph and Rodrigo above expectation. McNeil at expectations maybe could do a little better (but that's on Wash, an experienced Dline coach, not a former player). Hutch at expectation. Okudah is playing well now but he got delayed due to 2 years of injury. He could be a shut down CB eventually. We got 2023 and 2024 5th year option to keep Okudah for a few more years until we worry about free agency. Lots to prove in that span and Okudah was inherited too.

Levi hurt, Jameson hurt, Paschal hurt but been solid the few games he played. St Brown above expectations. Sewell at expectations. Jerry Jacobs above for UDFA. Mitchell is a day 3 rookie at expectations for a day 3 rookie and year 1 TE who missed most of offseason with injury. Barnes I would say a little below but he was raw switching to off ball LB

Lions have developed some players but it's still early in development too. Not even year 3 for these guys when they say it's time to start judging them.