George W. hates Ted Cruz

[Gulo Blue]

I don't think I have the story wrong. When asked for an address, Zimmerman says "I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address" which indicates he's probably already on foot behind the houses, on the sidewalk that runs between the backs of buildings - hence, no addresses. If he was in front of the houses on the road, he'd be able to get an address.

http://archive.hlntv.com/interactive/2013/06/17/zimmerman-trayvon-map-interactive

I think that video on that link is the one I'm talking about, where he walks through his story. There's a lot more there than the phone call. It's a story that includes going across the backs of the houses to give an address to meet a police officer where his car isn't and a confrontation that somehow has him moving forward in Martin's direction about one and a half properties before you get to where the body was found.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Virtually every time a person doesn't cooperate with law enforcement their life gets worse or ends.

I bet Zimmerman wished he'd have just stayed in his fucking car.

Every dead motherfucker who is the subject of the BLM movement wouldn't be dead if they had cooperated with the cops.

These crazy red necks out in Oregon are probably going to end up regretting the shit they're pulling.

 

[Gulo Blue]

And I'll restate some things from before since we argued these things a long time ago. I don't think the jury screwed up. I don't think the evidence was there to get a guilty verdict. But I also think Zimmerman was more aggressive than he lets on and I'm skeptical of his version where Martin just attacks him with very little dialog and no apparent reason. There's no evidence of it, but I suspect Zimmerman owns more of the responsibility than that. I'm not sure I buy the idea the Martin went for his gun, but he trapped Martin's arm with his own arm, the same arm that was able to grab the gun and shoot. That's one of those things I can believe that he believes, but I doubt that's what really happened.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think that video on that link is the one I'm talking about, where he walks through his story. There's a lot more there than the phone call. It's a story that includes going across the backs of the houses to give an address to meet a police officer where his car isn't and a confrontation that somehow has him moving forward in Martin's direction about one and a half properties before you get to where the body was found.

the story kind of falls apart when you wonder what Martin was doing during that time. If you look at the diagram it's clear that in all that time that Zimmerman walked back and forth (east to west at the north end, assuming that is the correct orientation of the map) through the walkway looking for an address, Trayvon Martin could have easily walked south to his dad's house, gone home and none of this ever would have happened. He had ample opportunity to flee. And please don't give me some bullshit like he probably didn't want to draw a stalker to his home in order to protect his family. Maybe Zimmerman was hoping to spot him after losing sight of him, that doesn't mean he was looking for a confrontation - he had already called the cops. So it's likely that Martin was looking for an opportunity to ambush Zimmerman and the physical evidence makes that a lot more plausible than Zimmerman attacking Martin.

Seriously, if Zimmerman was targeting Martin to kill him like the forum's designated race baiting shithead ambulance chaser says or targeting him to assault or even "confront" him, why would he call the cops?

 

[Gulo Blue]

the story kind of falls apart when you wonder what Martin was doing during that time. If you look at the diagram it's clear that in all that time that Zimmerman walked back and forth (east to west at the north end, assuming that is the correct orientation of the map) through the walkway looking for an address, Trayvon Martin could have easily walked south to his dad's house, gone home and none of this ever would have happened. He had ample opportunity to flee. And please don't give me some bullshit like he probably didn't want to draw a stalker to his home in order to protect his family. Maybe Zimmerman was hoping to spot him after losing sight of him, that doesn't mean he was looking for a confrontation - he had already called the cops. So it's likely that Martin was looking for an opportunity to ambush Zimmerman and the physical evidence makes that a lot more plausible than Zimmerman attacking Martin.

Seriously, if Zimmerman was targeting Martin to kill him like the forum's designated race baiting shithead ambulance chaser says or targeting him to assault or even "confront" him, why would he call the cops?

I don't think Zimmerman was targeting Martin planning on killing him. But I also don't believe Martin just attacked unprovoked. If he had a history of that kind of behavior, that would be different. I think there was more of a confrontation than Zimmerman described. He walked towards Martin as they exchanged words. Neither one backed down. It escalated until Zimmerman was scared for his life and he shot Martin. There's plenty of blame for both of them, I don't know what a fair split would be, and I think Zimmerman probably remembers his role incorrectly.

Who initiated 1st contact? Was there a push, a grab, punching? Who knows? People's memories/perceptions about these things are terrible. You might think you pushed someone, they might say you hit them, and you could both pass a lie detector test. That's just one of those things I assume everyone's experienced or witnessed at some point in their lives. It's not a good enough argument to send Zimmerman to jail, but I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying I think he was, to a significant degree, in the wrong, and somewhere between partly to mostly to blame.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm just saying I think he was, to a significant degree, in the wrong, and somewhere between partly to mostly to blame.

His life is a hell of a lot worse, probably, than it would have been if he had taken the advisement of the police dispatcher and stayed in his car or gone home and just let the police show up and see what was what.

Except for engaging in peaceful civil disobedience over something like civil rights in the southern United States back in the 50s, people are better off listening to the police.

 

[Gulo Blue]

His life is a hell of a lot worse, probably, than it would have been if he had taken the advisement of the police dispatcher and stayed in his car or gone home and just let the police show up and see what was what.

Except for engaging in peaceful civil disobedience over something like civil rights in the southern United States back in the 50s, people are better off listening to the police.

I don't think she explicitly told him to stay in the car. I seem to remember the closest thing to telling him to do something was "you don't need to do that." But yes, it's not often a good choice to do thing opposite to what a police officer tells you. Unless it's a T-1000 pretending to be an officer. ...even then "get out" was probably good advice for the guy in the helicopter.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I don't think she explicitly told him to stay in the car. I seem to remember the closest thing to telling him to do something was "you don't need to do that." But yes, it's not often a good choice to do thing opposite to what a police officer tells you. Unless it's a T-1000 pretending to be an officer. ...even then "get out" was probably good advice for the guy in the helicopter.

I think it was "we don't need you to do that."

It definitely was an advisement not to get out of the car.

EDIT: Actually an advisement not to follow Martin.

@ 2:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI03-MRKnI

 

[Spartanmack]

I think it was "we don't need you to do that."

It definitely was an advisement not to get out of the car.

EDIT: Actually an advisement not to follow Martin.

@ 2:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI03-MRKnI

I think he was already out of the car when the he was told they don't need him to follow Martin.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't think Zimmerman was targeting Martin planning on killing him. But I also don't believe Martin just attacked unprovoked. If he had a history of that kind of behavior, that would be different. I think there was more of a confrontation than Zimmerman described. He walked towards Martin as they exchanged words. Neither one backed down. It escalated until Zimmerman was scared for his life and he shot Martin. There's plenty of blame for both of them, I don't know what a fair split would be, and I think Zimmerman probably remembers his role incorrectly.

Who initiated 1st contact? Was there a push, a grab, punching? Who knows? People's memories/perceptions about these things are terrible. You might think you pushed someone, they might say you hit them, and you could both pass a lie detector test. That's just one of those things I assume everyone's experienced or witnessed at some point in their lives. It's not a good enough argument to send Zimmerman to jail, but I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying I think he was, to a significant degree, in the wrong, and somewhere between partly to mostly to blame.

If he gave that story a couple months after the incident, then I'd be more inclined to question his memory. But he wasn't just an eye witness, he was involved in the incident. I'm not praising his actions at all here but I'd place his culpability somewhere between little and none. I don't understand why people think Martin was this average, nice little kid. He'd been suspended three times, posted about dealing guns and drugs, has cell phone pictures of himself w/ guns and getting high, tweeted about assaulting a bus driver. He was a bad kid and more violent than Zimmerman who has no real criminal history. People ignore Martin's recent history and pound the table about Zimmerman having pushed a cop when he was drunk and his buddy was getting arrested FIVE years before the incident. That's literally the only incident in his past. According to the FBI investigation, all his neighbors and coworkers had nothing but good things to say about him. This caricature of him being a violent trouble maker is totally unfounded. It's ridiculous to think this tubby, unathletic wimpy 29 year old is the more likely aggressor than a troubled kid in his late teens. He was sent to live with his dad because he'd been getting in more and more trouble.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If he gave that story a couple months after the incident, then I'd be more inclined to question his memory. But he wasn't just an eye witness, he was involved in the incident. I'm not praising his actions at all here but I'd place his culpability somewhere between little and none. I don't understand why people think Martin was this average, nice little kid. He'd been suspended three times, posted about dealing guns and drugs, has cell phone pictures of himself w/ guns and getting high, tweeted about assaulting a bus driver. He was a bad kid and more violent than Zimmerman who has no real criminal history. People ignore Martin's recent history and pound the table about Zimmerman having when he was drunk and his buddy was getting arrested FIVE years before the incident. It's ridiculous to think this tubby, unathletic wimpy 29 year old is the more likely aggressor than a troubled kid in his late teens. He was sent to live with his dad because he'd been getting in more and more trouble.

I'm not questioning his memory. I'm questioning his biased perception.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm not questioning his memory. I'm questioning his biased perception.

It's possible but it's purely conjecture on your part and it's not really supported by much, particularly the character of the two men. Any reasonable estimate based on the evidence would assign a much higher probability to Martin as the aggressor. Maybe Zimmerman did try to look for him after hanging up, but I doubt he did it looking for a fight. Martin should have been long gone by that time - why didn't he just flee? Could it because he was a hot head teenager that thought he was a BAMF and wasn't gonna run like a bitch? Sadly, yes it very well could be - probably more likely than the scenario where tubby Zimmerman chases him down and confronts or assaults him.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm googling a little. I knew Martin posed as a thug, but I don't remember there being anything violent in his past. There's a story saying he might have been serving a suspension for assaulting a bus driver based on a tweet, but it's known that he was actually serving that suspension for having a marijuana pipe.

If anyone else sees something stronger, post and I'll read it, but I read it stated there was no actual documented violence in his past.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's possible but it's purely conjecture on your part and it's not really supported by much, particularly the character of the two men. Any reasonable estimate based on the evidence would assign a much higher probability to Martin as the aggressor. Maybe Zimmerman did try to look for him after hanging up, but I doubt he did it looking for a fight. Martin should have been long gone by that time - why didn't he just flee? Could it because he was a hot head teenager that thought he was a BAMF and wasn't gonna run like a bitch? Sadly, yes it very well could be - probably more likely than the scenario where tubby Zimmerman chases him down and confronts or assaults him.

When I spell out the difference between what I view as established fact and what I suspect, you don't actually have to point out that it's conjecture. When we're talking about things that weren't proven, but we believe to be more likely...that's conjecture, on both sides. Obviously, I disagree with what you think a reasonable estimate would be. Or the expectation that Martin would or should be more or less likely to flee than Zimmerman. Martin has every right to confront Zimmerman. And if he did, it doesn't mean he initiated contact or had any more legal responsibility than Zimmerman to back down.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm googling a little. I knew Martin posed as a thug, but I don't remember there being anything violent in his past. There's a story saying he might have been serving a suspension for assaulting a bus driver based on a tweet, but it's known that he was actually serving that suspension for having a marijuana pipe.

If anyone else sees something stronger, post and I'll read it, but I read it stated there was no actual documented violence in his past.

So that kind of behavior is only thuggish if you're caught doing it and it's documented. If you brag about it and have pictures of yourself with guns, you're probably not actually like that and are most likely a good kid putting on a show. Got it. You realize you don't need a conviction or series of convictions to make a determination of someone's character. The label of thug does not need to be proved in a court of law.

 

[Gulo Blue]

So that kind of behavior is only thuggish if you're caught doing it. If you brag about it, you probably didn't actually do it and are most likely a good kid putting on a show. Got it. You realize you don't need a conviction or series of convictions to make a determination of someone's character. The label of thug does not need to be proved in a court of law.

Did he brag about doing something violent?

I know Zimmerman's story was biased because there's video where he reenacts it, and while it does move in the direction Martin came from, it doesn't go remotely far enough to explain where Martin ended up.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

You said emphatically that his story was BS - that implies a fair degree of certainty. As for your other point, both people probably do say the other guy started it but I don't agree they both believe it - usually one of them is lying to avoid getting in trouble.

Looking at the map and reading the transcript of the call, it's not hard to see how his story makes sense. I was mistaken that he got out of his car just to look for an address - he was also following Martin on foot, but that doesn't make him a criminal or even indicate he was looking to confront him. He followed Martin through what he called a "pass through" (the space between buildings that leads to the sidewalk, probably an easement) and lost sight of him. The cop tells him he doesn't need to follow him and Zimmerman says OK. He then tells the operator he doesn't know exactly where he is because he's on the sidewalk that runs through the development (he's in a common area, not chasing Martin through back yards) and can't see an address. So instead of giving an exact address, he directs the operator to tell the police to meet him at a particular spot. So is it so hard to believe that as he's walking back to his car to go and meet the police, Martin surprises him, starts beating the crap out of him and as Zimmerman said, tells him "you're gonna die tonight"? Considering the only injury Martin suffered was the gun shot and scratches on his knuckles (indicating he was striking Zimmerman and probably struck the ground) - he doesn't have scratches on his head or body, no bruises or any defensive wounds indicating Zimmerman assaulted him and the fact Zimmerman passed 2 lie detectors, it seems more than likely he's telling the truth.

This doesnt fit the flag burning narrative of progressives. Zimmerman is supposed to BE WHITE or a WHITE HISPANIC accoring toMSNBC abc , cbs aol, yahoo, cnn Fuckpost etc. Where is the self-loathing? Damnit!

 

[Spartan23MSU]

I'm not questioning his memory. I'm questioning his biased perception.

Gosh there are lots of people that suffer violence for no reason (let alone being punched in the face nose broken and fed up by a punk fing thug) and Zimmerans is quite questionable *rolls eyes*. Lets bring up the amount of killings done for $5 on the south side (500 a year? with less flack than the white hispanic on 1 case). Lets go lobby for peace in Englewood, Gulo. I know youd be game to make a difference. When are you free in March? Dont worry youll be fine there. Leaving the white suburban comforts is only a few days to make a difference. Why are the things that SHOULD Be TALKED ABOUT ABORTED as NOT HAPPENING":?>?>?>???

This is bringing on more yawns than I expected. Ohhh, if you dont like Ted Cruz youre racist, hes of hispanic descent (thought id get that out of the way). So sick and burned out of stupid polarized retards (there are millions of them) the last 8 years feeling copious amounts of guilt but never set a foot outside their white suburban comforts to make a difference, IE LIB-TARDS!

 

[Spartan23MSU]

It's possible but it's purely conjecture on your part and it's not really supported by much, particularly the character of the two men. Any reasonable estimate based on the evidence would assign a much higher probability to Martin as the aggressor. Maybe Zimmerman did try to look for him after hanging up, but I doubt he did it looking for a fight. Martin should have been long gone by that time - why didn't he just flee? Could it because he was a hot head teenager that thought he was a BAMF and wasn't gonna run like a bitch? Sadly, yes it very well could be - probably more likely than the scenario where tubby Zimmerman chases him down and confronts or assaults him.

If Zimmerman was a "white hispanic ( soo funny)" that practiced Islam he would have been swept under the carpet faster than an ice cube dropped from the freezer.

 

[Spartanmack]

Did he brag about doing something violent?

I know Zimmerman's story was biased because there's video where he reenacts it, and while it does move in the direction Martin came from, it doesn't go remotely far enough to explain where Martin ended up.

Yes, he did. On more than one occasion. the tweet about assaulting the bus driver came from an account linked to him. He also had a text exchange about brawling with a rival who "snitched on him". from the Miami Herald:

Trayvon said he fought a rival who “snitched on me.”

Trayvon: “I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd.”

Friend: “Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting.”

Trayvon: “Nay im not done with fool.. he gone hav 2 see me again.”

Friend: “Nooo Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1951821.html#storylink=cpy

He was only 17, does he need to have exhibited that behavior his entire life? The recent pattern (3 suspensions, guns, drugs, fights, assault, etc) indicate he was a troubled kid at a time when he doesn't have the maturity to handle a lot of these situations. If he was assaulted by Zimmerman, why does he have no defensive wounds? you would think if Zimmerman wasn't surprised by an assault Trayvon would have some injuries. And look at what he did to Zimmerman - does a kid who has never been in a fight or exhibited violent tendencies (even though there is strong evidence he has) break a guys nose and bash his head into the concrete and threaten to kill a guy? You know what good, non-violent kids do in those situations? They go home and tell their dad someone suspicious looking was following them. They don't hide and ambush a guy or wait around and confront him.

Based on the physical evidence and the hearsay evidence of the character of the 2 men and the fact that Zimmerman passed 2 lie detector tests, it's most likely that even if Zimmerman was looking for Martin, he was ambushed and assaulted by Martin. Zimmerman could have done things differently but his actions don't add up to murder or manslaughter.