It goes like this

[tigermud]

what is your solution to this decades-long issue at least Trump is trying to solve it nothing else has worked all these years? I say end the war on drugs is the best thing we could try next.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There is abuse in everything, there is no perfect system. I'll trust our border agents to determine that judgment and if caught abusing the system then fire them and charge them

A 55 ft wall would a lot more perfect.

 

[tigermud]

oh and yeah one other clause.

Can the government bypass that process?

Yes. A 1996 statute permits immigration authorities to deport people without a hearing, a lawyer or a right of appeal under certain conditions, a process known as expedited removal. Under current policy, the Department of Homeland Security criteria for expedited removals apply to undocumented migrants found within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of entering the country. The statute imposes no geographic limit and allows for expedited removals up to two years after a migrant has entered the country, raising the possibility that the Trump administration may use this power more aggressively.

Can a new immigrant avoid expedited removal?

Yes, by seeking asylum. When that happens, officers at the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services — not a judge — will review cases to decide whether applicants have a credible fear of persecution back home. If so, they are placed in the immigration court system for a fuller consideration of their request. If officers decided that asylum seekers have no credible fear and should be deported, they still have a right to appeal that denial to an immigration judge, who has seven days to decide.

 

[Gulo Blue]

what is your solution to this decades-long issue at least Trump is trying to solve it nothing else has worked all these years? I say end the war on drugs is the best thing we could try next.

It's got to be a multi-sided approach. And while the 55 ft wall is a joke, better border security is a part of it. Whatever combination of walls, sensors, and people is most cost effect. An improved work visa and immigration system to allow the number of people in that we depend on. Computer technologies should make massive vetting more doable. Maybe if records don't exist, we insist on tracking certain data of people we let in for a sufficient period of time to make a decision. And the hard part, I think is the ratcheting up of enforcement over a long period of time, more than one administration. Own up to the fact that we've been taking advantage of the cheap labor a letting people in and develop something fair (maybe really long term visas maybe a path to citizenship) for the people that have been positive contributors to our society, while at the same time signaling to future would be illegal border-crossers that we're changing the way things work, and future illegal border-crossers won't get the same deal.

 

[Gulo Blue]

oh and yeah one other clause.

Can the government bypass that process?

Yes. A 1996 statute permits immigration authorities to deport people without a hearing, a lawyer or a right of appeal under certain conditions, a process known as expedited removal. Under current policy, the Department of Homeland Security criteria for expedited removals apply to undocumented migrants found within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of entering the country. The statute imposes no geographic limit and allows for expedited removals up to two years after a migrant has entered the country, raising the possibility that the Trump administration may use this power more aggressively.

Can a new immigrant avoid expedited removal?

Yes, by seeking asylum. When that happens, officers at the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services — not a judge — will review cases to decide whether applicants have a credible fear of persecution back home. If so, they are placed in the immigration court system for a fuller consideration of their request. If officers decided that asylum seekers have no credible fear and should be deported, they still have a right to appeal that denial to an immigration judge, who has seven days to decide.

I don't know that this would bother me. I mean, what's the difference between an immigration judge and an officer of immigration services? But I do wonder how you know if someone has been here fewer than 14 days.

 

[tigermud]

It's got to be a multi-sided approach. And while the 55 ft wall is a joke, better border security is a part of it. Whatever combination of walls, sensors, and people is most cost effect. An improved work visa and immigration system to allow the number of people in that we depend on. Computer technologies should make massive vetting more doable. Maybe if records don't exist, we insist on tracking certain data of people we let in for a sufficient period of time to make a decision. And the hard part, I think is the ratcheting up of enforcement over a long period of time, more than one administration. Own up to the fact that we've been taking advantage of the cheap labor a letting people in and develop something fair (maybe really long term visas maybe a path to citizenship) for the people that have been positive contributors to our society, while at the same time signaling to future would be illegal border-crossers that we're changing the way things work, and future illegal border-crossers won't get the same deal.

future illegal border-crossers won't get the same deal, tried that under Reagan here we are again decades later. while these are not all bad ideas on paper, it's not the overriding reason we have such a huge influx on our borders and are finding ourselves here again. The largest factor IMO is America's enormous appetite for illicit drugs has turned the counties south of our border into gang-controlled wastelands with more daily death than during the Vietnam war. I don't blame a human being for trying to find a better life and feeling so desperate to escape their horrid environments but we cannot take on this load at such a rapid pace. Nothing we have done to this point has worked. Our government has been trying to combat the war on drugs for 40+ years, it's an utter failure. I would start there first.

 

[tigermud]

I don't know that this would bother me. I mean, what's the difference between an immigration judge and an officer of immigration services? But I do wonder how you know if someone has been here fewer than 14 days.

When you actually see them get off a paddle boat on the bank of the Rio grand then the smuggler paddles back to the other side after he drops people off it's pretty clear.

 

[Michchamp]

When you actually see them get off a paddle boat on the bank of the Rio grand then the smuggler paddles back to the other side after he drops people off it's pretty clear.

then why is Trump demanding we do away with due process of law? it's not like judges are letting anybody stay in the country when there's evidence against them...

and also, they can already turn people away at the border without a hearing.

try to fly/boat/drive into the country without a visa, or passport... they put your ass right back on a plane/boat/truck right out.

and also, the constitutionality of expedited removals anywhere in the country is being challenged in court right now.

 

[tigermud]

then why is Trump demanding we do away with due process of law? it's not like judges are letting anybody stay in the country when there's evidence against them...

and also, they can already turn people away at the border without a hearing.

try to fly/boat/drive into the country without a visa, or passport... they put your ass right back on a plane/boat/truck right out.

and also, the constitutionality of expedited removals anywhere in the country is being challenged in court right now.

This discussion started when Trump was asked for 5,000 more judges for the border, he basically said pffst where the #$ are we going to conjure up 5,000 more judges on a whim how bout we just turn em around and send em right back, then, as usual, the left gets their pants all in a wad cuz you know Trump is evil and such but yeah good point on the if by air or sea.. why not land to. what's the problem?

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/de...required-for-foreign-nationals-(international

 

[sggatecl]

what is your solution to this decades-long issue at least Trump is trying to solve it nothing else has worked all these years? I say end the war on drugs is the best thing we could try next.

I didn't give Obama credit for 'trying to fix healthcare' and I'm not about to give Trump credit for 'trying to fix border security'.

 

[Gulo Blue]

future illegal border-crossers won't get the same deal, tried that under Reagan here we are again decades later. while these are not all bad ideas on paper, it's not the overriding reason we have such a huge influx on our borders and are finding ourselves here again. The largest factor IMO is America's enormous appetite for illicit drugs has turned the counties south of our border into gang-controlled wastelands with more daily death than during the Vietnam war. I don't blame a human being for trying to find a better life and feeling so desperate to escape their horrid environments but we cannot take on this load at such a rapid pace. Nothing we have done to this point has worked. Our government has been trying to combat the war on drugs for 40+ years, it's an utter failure. I would start there first.

I think you're way off.


Edit:
In 2014 there were 11.5 million undocumented workers in agriculture, construction, and service jobs. 3.6% of the country. According to Pew.


Corrected:
In 2014 there were 7.9 million undocumented workers in the labor force. 2.5% of the country. According to Pew.


538 estimates there are 121,000 pot dealers in the country.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-number-of-marijuana-dealers-in-the-united-states/


21% of drug trafficking offenses are related to pot. (https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/drug-addiction/drug-trafficking-by-the-numbers/) If the proportion scales, that would mean there are 580,000 traffickers in the nation.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Besides, aren't the overwhelming majority people overstaying visas and not border crossers?

 

[tinselwolverine]

Our government has been trying to combat the war on drugs for 40+ years, it's an utter failure. I would start there first.

What successes would you start with?

 

[tigermud]

What successes would you start with?

Making alcohol illegal led to huge increases in organized crime, corruption, and violence. For many of the reasons that led to its repeal, the same arguments can be made for why we need to end the war on drugs

Ending Alcohol Prohibition in 1933 was a success

 

[Gulo Blue]

Making alcohol illegal led to huge increases in organized crime, corruption, and violence. For many of the reasons that led to its repeal, the same arguments can be made for why we need to end the war on drugs

Ending Alcohol Prohibition in 1933 was a success

If there are somewhere around 580,000 drug traffickers in the country, only some part of that number is undocumented and most undocumented didn't get here by crossing the border anyway. There's no way around it, the percentage of border crossers involved with drugs is down in the single digits compared to all the undocumented people in the country.


Edit: OK. I went back to the Pew study and I did misread it (though it doesn't change what I'm saying here.) The TOTAL undocumented labor force in 2014 was 7.9 million. (http://www.pewhispanic.org/2016/11/03/appendix-d-detailed-tables/#status) But still, if every single drug trafficker in the nation was an illegal border crosser, meaning not a single US citizen was a drug trafficker, you are still in the single digits, and zero illegal drug market is only going to make a small dent in the motivation for people to come here.

 

[tigermud]

If there are somewhere around 580,000 drug traffickers in the country, only some part of that number is undocumented and most undocumented didn't get here by crossing the border anyway. There's no way around it, the percentage of border crossers involved with drugs is down in the single digits compared to all the undocumented people in the country.

the context was the conditions of the countries that those leaving in droves are under, the gangs run Mexico, legalize drugs here and over time that subsides IMO and Mexico can then start their long path of becoming great again.

 

[tinselwolverine]

the context was the conditions of the countries that those leaving in droves are under, the gangs run Mexico, legalize drugs here and over time that subsides IMO and Mexico can then start their long path of becoming great again.

How about this? A war on drugs that's actually a war on drugs.

If we can send our fighting forces halfway around the earth and take out the world's fourth most powerful military, our forces could certainly take off out of Oceanside and take out the cartels before breakfast.

Not gonna happen.

Not enough money for the military industrial complex in it; and too many powerful people in the money chain of the cartels.

 

[Gulo Blue]

the context was the conditions of the countries that those leaving in droves are under, the gangs run Mexico, legalize drugs here and over time that subsides IMO and Mexico can then start their long path of becoming great again.

I don't disagree that it would be helpful to Mexico, but I think assuming it would set them on a path to greatness, enough to curb the motivation to move north, is wishful thinking.

 

[Michchamp]

Huckabee-Sanders to get her own secret service detail after this.

presumably, they'll force restaurants to serve her food at gunpoint.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Huckabee-Sanders to get her own secret service detail after this.

presumably, they'll force restaurants to serve her food at gunpoint.

I was arguing with this conservative friend of mine about this. She was calling the refusal to serve Huckabee Sanders "terrible;" I agreed with her that it was probably wrong and bad business, but way short of terrible, and really not that big of a deal.

I also told her I was a little surprised that Huckabee-Sanders didn't have a staffer to set shit like dinners out with a group like most other well known people do; making sure there was seating available; looking to see if there was a more private room available, and what not, before this whole incident.