Kieler going to play LT

[Spartanmack]

Discussion of a QB change dominates the discussion on this board when there are many other more valid reasons that contributed more to the loss. Obviously it's the nature of the QB position, when a team starts losing, the backup QB becomes the most popular person on the roster.

As for the 3rd play of OT, it's very easy to say that he should have gotten rid of the ball, tucked it and ran, or do something different. You combine receivers running the wrong routes as the LT gets beat you're not going to get a good outcome. We have the benefit of sitting on our couches and re-hashing it, but in a split second, that combo spells disaster.

You're saying that you want the coaches to make a rational decision, which is what I believe they are doing. I've said I'd be open to a change if Lewerke pushed TOC in spring and fall camp, but he didn't, the competition was over quickly. If Lewerke has somehow taken off in the last few weeks and now understands the offense as good or better than TOC, that's fine, I just highly doubt that's the case.

but nobody is defending the kicker, or the o-line, or the d-backs. We're all fine with seeing changes there as well. The QB conversation dominates BECAUSE NOTHING IS BEING DONE THERE. Why on earth should we give equal time to problem areas where there is some effort being expended to fix them?

As for the 3rd down sack in OT, it's not his fault that the receivers ran the wrong routes, but he's a 5th year senior, QB of the MSU Spartans, he has to know that it's important to not take a sack there. He gets at least 50% of the blame.

I'm wondering if anyone had the opportunity to push TOC in Spring camp - this is looking like an unmitigated blunder. And even if TOC is that much better, it matters a whole lot less at this point. We're not going to Indy and TOC isn't coming back next year, so again, whatever strides he makes instead of Lewerke or Deweaver making those strides, will be completely wasted. Is dooming the team to 8-4 or worse next year worth a shot at the Outback Bowl (a long shot, at that)?

 

[Spartanmack]

Well, if you figure in the drops and plays called back because of holding, I'd say the inverse is true. If Corley holds on to that pass he's likely gone considering he was hit in stride but even if he slowed down slightly and got tackled it's 1st and 10 from the 40 vs Hartbarger punting from his own end zone and a tired defense coming back on the field. Madaris also had a key drop, a solid run was called back due to the hold (I understand that the player who was held could have made the tackle), there were other completions and gains wiped out. Yes performance is more than the box score.

for all the drops there's probably an equal number of really tough catches on bad throws and the incomplete rate also doesn't show how many of those throws were horrible or how many were thrown into double coverage because he can't make it to his second read and missed wide open receivers. So to say his number could have been better, they also could have easily been worse.

 

[Sbee]

for all the drops there's probably an equal number of really tough catches on bad throws and the incomplete rate also doesn't show how many throws were horrible or how many were thrown into double coverage because he can't make it to his second read and missed wide open receivers. So to say his number could have been better, they also could have easily been worse and he deserves a healthy share of the blame for why they weren't.

Yes, receivers bail QB's out and drop balls as well, not sure if they exactly even out but they do cancel a number of them out. I see people pointing out all of the situations where the QB errors but not the ones where the receiver isn't where he's supposed to be, the ball is dropped, etc. In the end, I think his numbers are a good reflection of his performance as the sample size grows.

 

[Sbee]

but nobody is defending the kicker, or the o-line, or the d-backs. We're all fine with seeing changes there as well. The QB conversation dominates BECAUSE NOTHING IS BEING DONE THERE. Why on earth should we give equal time to problem areas where there is some effort being expended to fix them?

As for the 3rd down sack in OT, it's not his fault that the receivers ran the wrong routes, but he's a 5th year senior, QB of the MSU Spartans, he has to know that it's important to not take a sack there. He gets at least 50% of the blame.

I'm wondering if anyone had the opportunity to push TOC in Spring camp - this is looking like an unmitigated blunder. And even if TOC is that much better, it matters a whole lot less at this point. We're not going to Indy and TOC isn't coming back next year, so again, whatever strides he makes instead of Lewerke or Deweaver making those strides, will be completely wasted. Is dooming the team to 8-4 or worse next year worth a shot at the Outback Bowl (a long shot, at that)?

Nobody is defending those other positions that are killing us but there isn't close to the criticism to what the QB position gets. Of course that's the nature of the position and though largely incorrect, the QB gets the blame for the offensive struggles. My point is that this is an inexperienced team (either young, or lacking game experience) and we're seeing that on offense. 3 new OL, one WR who had more than a handful of catches, new staring QB, etc, the problem is more than one guy.

As for the competition, MSU didn't name a starter until early/mid august. Terry was supposed to push TOC but didn't look good, his numbers weren't great in the GW game and he nearly lost two fumbles, all of the post game analysis was that TOC is clearly the guy, MD and Warner both talked about Terry having to get better. Deweaver really wasn't considered I'd imagine, he was essentially a 12th grader on campus in the spring. There's so much to learn as far as altering mechanics, putting on weight, learning a college offense, reading defenses, etc. Lewerke had the same thing to a lesser extent as a true freshman last year and RS freshman in fall. I'm sure his ceiling is higher than TOC and he will be a better QB at some point in his career, but the opinion of the staff and insiders is that isn't the case right now. You would only start him in an effort to shorten that learning curve so he's better for next year, at least at this point. I'm not willing to lessen our chances of winning as many of the remaining games as possible. 8 more games to go, more home games, tailgates, recruiting visits, rivalry games, etc. Also, a full on youth movement increases the chance of missing a bowl game which comes along with an extra month of practices and experience.

If we get eliminated from bowl contention, start Lewerke, if we make a bowl, play Lewerke a substantial amount in that game. I just don't see it as making sense right now, the coaching staff sees it the same way.

 

[Spartanmack]

I know you have the "father knows best" attitude when it comes to the staff, particularly Dantonio and that's fine - he's earned his share of blind faith fans. But TOC's play sucks right now and none of the preseason goals are within our grasp. I don't think the outback bowl is even a likely outcome so it's time to think seriously about the future. I know you think that's binary thinking but it doesn't necessarily mean giving up on this year - it's not a foregone conclusion that we're better off with O'Connor. Clearly the staff thinks it, but they're not infallible, as they're showing every week lately.

If Lewerke's ceiling is higher, then put him in because the value to incremental gains toward TOC's ceiling have almost zero value. Waiting until we're eliminated is also suicidal - we'd have to lose 5 out of 8 games. It could be week 12 by then and then what will we have? The exact same scenario going into next year.

And for the record, I don't think TOC is the only reason this team is struggling. The biggest problem we have is the same thing that has plagued us all along - an offensive line that peaks at OK. The defensive backfield was worse one year but OL is the spot where we've never been able to recruit any elite talent. And before Johnny2x2x throws a tantrum (where is that guy anyway?) about Jack Conklin, remember he wasn't even rated as a recruit and he massively outperformed expectations.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

I know you have the "father knows best" attitude when it comes to the staff, particularly Dantonio and that's fine - he's earned his share of blind faith fans. But TOC's play sucks right now and none of the preseason goals are within our grasp. I don't think the outback bowl is even a likely outcome so it's time to think seriously about the future. I know you think that's binary thinking but it doesn't necessarily mean giving up on this year - it's not a foregone conclusion that we're better off with O'Connor. Clearly the staff thinks it, but they're not infallible, as they're showing every week lately.

If Lewerke's ceiling is higher, then put him in because the value to incremental gains toward TOC's ceiling have almost zero value. Waiting until we're eliminated is also suicidal - we'd have to lose 5 out of 8 games. It could be week 12 by then and then what will we have? The exact same scenario going into next year.

And for the record, I don't think TOC is the only reason this team is struggling. The biggest problem we have is the same thing that has plagued us all along - an offensive line that peaks at OK. The defensive backfield was worse one year but OL is the spot where we've never been able to recruit any elite talent. And before Johnny2x2x throws a tantrum (where is that guy anyway?) about Jack Conklin, remember he wasn't even rated as a recruit and he massively outperformed expectations.

Man I love you!

 

[Sbee]

I know you have the "father knows best" attitude when it comes to the staff, particularly Dantonio and that's fine - he's earned his share of blind faith fans. But TOC's play sucks right now and none of the preseason goals are within our grasp. I don't think the outback bowl is even a likely outcome so it's time to think seriously about the future. I know you think that's binary thinking but it doesn't necessarily mean giving up on this year - it's not a foregone conclusion that we're better off with O'Connor. Clearly the staff thinks it, but they're not infallible, as they're showing every week lately.

If Lewerke's ceiling is higher, then put him in because the value to incremental gains toward TOC's ceiling have almost zero value. Waiting until we're eliminated is also suicidal - we'd have to lose 5 out of 8 games. It could be week 12 by then and then what will we have? The exact same scenario going into next year.

And for the record, I don't think TOC is the only reason this team is struggling. The biggest problem we have is the same thing that has plagued us all along - an offensive line that peaks at OK. The defensive backfield was worse one year but OL is the spot where we've never been able to recruit any elite talent. And before Johnny2x2x throws a tantrum (where is that guy anyway?) about Jack Conklin, remember he wasn't even rated as a recruit and he massively outperformed expectations.

Ok, then this boils down to a different philosophy for the remainder of the season. I want to do all that we can to win as many games as possible, I don't have this attitude that we should blow it up if we're not going to win the big ten title. I think it's pretty much certain to everyone in the program and those insiders who watch practice every day that the program is not better off in the short term with Lewerke in there. This is where I say that the unknown is undefeated, I doubt that astute observers of practice would say that Lewerke gives us a better chance to win this season, but he hasn't proven otherwise to fans in games, so people wanted to give him a shot. People also wanted to play Damion Terry over Connor Cook in 2013. I will trust the staff on this once, they've benched seniors for the betterment of the team before,they wouldn't hesitate to do it again if Lewerke could outperform TOC in game situations.

 

[gotime909]

Think you're missing what he's saying. He's saying that we'll be better next year by going to one of the others now. Which I 100% agree. I just don't think I've seen any improvement from O'Conner and if after 5 years he hasn't got it, why should I believe that he's suddenly gonna know how to go through progressions or become accurate?

Coach D is a great coach, but even the best are wrong from time to time.

 

[Spartanmack]

Ok, then this boils down to a different philosophy for the remainder of the season. I want to do all that we can to win as many games as possible, I don't have this attitude that we should blow it up if we're not going to win the big ten title. I think it's pretty much certain to everyone in the program and those insiders who watch practice every day that the program is not better off in the short term with Lewerke in there. This is where I say that the unknown is undefeated, I doubt that astute observers of practice would say that Lewerke gives us a better chance to win this season, but he hasn't proven otherwise to fans in games, so people wanted to give him a shot. People also wanted to play Damion Terry over Connor Cook in 2013. I will trust the staff on this once, they've benched seniors for the betterment of the team before,they wouldn't hesitate to do it again if Lewerke could outperform TOC in game situations.

OK, but I don't have the attitude we should blow it up either. I don't believe our chances of winning go down that much by benching O'Connor. I think what we actually disagree on is a matter of degrees - you think subbing out TOC is a doomsday scenario while I think it probably doesn't hurt us all that much now. You want to do everything possible to salvage a second rate bowl bid at the cost of the future whereas, I'm willing to take a little incremental risk this year to build for the future.

Keeping TOC in is my doomsday scenario. He isn't getting it done, he's not going to the NFL and he's not coming back to MSU. Thanks for the loyalty Ty, it's much appreciated. Now grab a clipboard, your new role is helping to bring along the future of MSU football.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Give Lewerke a few reps and see what happens. Give TOC one last shot the first half and if he isnt getting it done let Lewerke get a few reps. It isnt coming down to the human/loyalty factor right now, its competition and we need to see what our options are. BYU is no Joke they havent lost by more than 4 points this year. We have a "big game" ahead of us. We arent used to being in this position for nearly a decade and I think we see what Lewerke brings to the table before the B10 season goes into full swing.

 

[gotime909]

Regardless of O'Conner's play, I think it's a huge mistake that we haven't gotten the backup any work.