Last night's 9th inning debacle

[mhughes0021]

Our defense is below averge (probably less than below avg when ordonez/raburn/betemit play)

Our SP is below average

Our relievers are bottom of the barrel

Our line ups are jacked up a nightly basis

We have no lead off hitter

Ajax, betemit and Raburn strike out swinging ALL THE TIME

We continuously cant score runs with runners in scoring position and less than 2 outs.

....were really not that good of a team. The batting averages and Verlander are the only things we do well lol. Not sure if that wins us the division.

 

[beez]

Everyone on the board is lynching Jim Leyland for putting Valverde in a tie game. Give me a break..I dont care what his numbers are before, if I have a guy who has a good era, and has been as good as valverde this year, I need to be able to trust he can get it done. If Cabrera had the night off and the game was tied would we not let him pinch hit in the clutch if he had a .200 BA this year as a pinch hitter..hell no. You put your best players in clutch situations..the rest is up to them. It's not Jim's fault for still believing is 35 save guy can get 3 outs in the 9th.

No beez, you don't get it. Valverde has a mental block against pitching in a tied game. That's why he gave up a ground ball single, and as a team they allowed two bunters to reach base. He just can't cut it.

Stupid me...guess we should see if Yoda's available...he's the only one that can right the ship for Valverde now. He's practically useless.

 

[deathroh]

No beez, you don't get it. Valverde has a mental block against pitching in a tied game. That's why he gave up a ground ball single, and as a team they allowed two bunters to reach base. He just can't cut it.

Stupid me...guess we should see if Yoda's available...he's the only one that can right the ship for Valverde now. He's practically useless.

Of course it's Leyland's fault though. He should have seen the bunt "hits" coming (including the blown call on the second one).

 

[beez]

Stupid me...guess we should see if Yoda's available...he's the only one that can right the ship for Valverde now. He's practically useless.

Of course it's Leyland's fault though. He should have seen the bunt "hits" coming (including the blown call on the second one).

Even when Leyland is right he's wrong...he lies when he tells the truth..he touches little boys probably, he is just not to be trusted anymore. If the Tigers win the world series this year it will be a negative achievement and we will find a way that he tainted it.

 

[jmakula87]

Like somebody else mentioned earlier, I would have been much happier if he had left JB in there. When a player has consistently shown that he can't perform in certain situations, and Leyland is obviously one for playing the percentages, maybe he should have left in our other reliever that has pitched very well as of late instead of putting in the guy that has repeatedly failed in that spot. I really wish JVal would pitch better there though

 

[jimrice]

Like somebody else mentioned earlier, I would have been much happier if he had left JB in there. When a player has consistently shown that he can't perform in certain situations, and Leyland is obviously one for playing the percentages, maybe he should have left in our other reliever that has pitched very well as of late instead of putting in the guy that has repeatedly failed in that spot. I really wish JVal would pitch better there though

I don't buy this whole "certain situations" nonsense.

Valverde is a pro. He knows that if he gives up a run, his team is likely to lose. There's no drop in concentration, there's as much pressure in that spot as having a one run lead. He prepares the same, should have the same focus, and knows his job is to put up a zero.

Maybe you can make some point about closers getting some work in blow outs, and how they don't have their usual mental edge. Maybe.

But to say that pitching in a tie game in the ninth is a spot where you shouldn't use your best reliever, you've lost the right to call Leyland dumb. Benoit has pitched more than an inning exactly twice all year. There's no reason to run him out there with Valverde ready to go.

There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.

 

[mhughes0021]

[quote author=jmakula87 board=tigertalk thread=560 post=13210 time=1313704316]There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.

If it didnt happen all the time in a no-save situation, then id agree. Facts are facts....he sucks every single time he comes out and isnt trying to get the save.

 

[biggunsbob]

Like somebody else mentioned earlier, I would have been much happier if he had left JB in there. When a player has consistently shown that he can't perform in certain situations, and Leyland is obviously one for playing the percentages, maybe he should have left in our other reliever that has pitched very well as of late instead of putting in the guy that has repeatedly failed in that spot. I really wish JVal would pitch better there though

I don't buy this whole "certain situations" nonsense.

Valverde is a pro. He knows that if he gives up a run, his team is likely to lose. There's no drop in concentration, there's as much pressure in that spot as having a one run lead. He prepares the same, should have the same focus, and knows his job is to put up a zero.

Maybe you can make some point about closers getting some work in blow outs, and how they don't have their usual mental edge. Maybe.

But to say that pitching in a tie game in the ninth is a spot where you shouldn't use your best reliever, you've lost the right to call Leyland dumb. Benoit has pitched more than an inning exactly twice all year. There's no reason to run him out there with Valverde ready to go.

There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.

Benoit pitched to one batter in the 8th and only threw 4 pitches last night. Same thing you are saying about JV can be said about JB.. If he is one of your best set-up man he should be able to come back out for the 9th.

 

[jimrice]

[quote author=jmakula87 board=tigertalk thread=560 post=13210 time=1313704316]There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.

If it didnt happen all the time in a no-save situation, then id agree. Facts are facts....he sucks every single time he comes out and isnt trying to get the save.

Facts are facts, and you should learn the difference between facts and opinion. What you've given is opinion. If you look at game logs, you will find that Valverde does not fail as often as you think in non save situations.

 

[biggunsbob]

Here are Jose's 6 decisions. The first two came on April 12th and April 13th verses the Rangers. He came in a 4-4 game and a 2-2 game and the Tigers won both in the bottom of the ninth. But his last 4 decisions have been losses.

May 2nd ..3-3 verses the Yankees and JV gave up 2 runs.
May 29th.. 3-3 verses the Red Sox he gave up 1 run.
July 1st.... 1-1 verses the Giants he gave up 3 runs.
August 17.. 4-4 verses the twins he gave up 2 runs.

Look i know there are other games when he helped get the Tigers to extra innings and such but the pattern as of late is not very good for Jose in non save situations.. I am not sure what the answer is but we all had the right to be worried when Jim brought him in last night to start the 9th..

 

[jimrice]

biggunsbob[/color]]Here are Jose's 6 decisions. The first two came on April 12th and April 13th verses the Rangers. He came in a 4-4 game and a 2-2 game and the Tigers won both in the bottom of the ninth. But his last 4 decisions have been losses.

May 2nd ..3-3 verses the Yankees and JV gave up 2 runs.
May 29th.. 3-3 verses the Red Sox he gave up 1 run.
July 1st.... 1-1 verses the Giants he gave up 3 runs.
August 17.. 4-4 verses the twins he gave up 2 runs.

Look i know there are other games when he helped get the Tigers to extra innings and such but the pattern as of late is not very good for Jose in non save situations.. I am not sure what the answer is but we all had the right to be worried when Jim brought him in last night to start the 9th..

Why not just look at his numbers in non save situations?

3 games in July, two bad games
5 games in June, zero runs allowed

May had a lot of bad games, 4 bad ones, 2 not very good, 1 fine

6 games in April, zero runs

You guys are talking out your ass. What you get from this is that Valverde wasn't that great in May.

Not some nonsense about non-save situations.

 

[jmakula87]

He is clearly worse in non-save situations this year. I'm not sure that can be argued.

Guess there are quite a few of us talking out of our ass though :/

 

[tycobb420]

From Bless You Boys: Jose Valverde in save situations: 35-35, 0.51 ERA, 0.971 WHIP; in non-save situations

 

[mhughes0021]

[quote="tycobb420":lcqargxa]From Bless You Boys: Jose Valverde in save situations: 35-35, 0.51 ERA, 0.971 WHIP; in non-save situations

 

[jimrice]

[quote="mhughes0021"d81vika]
[quote="tycobb420"d81vika]From Bless You Boys: Jose Valverde in save situations: 35-35, 0.51 ERA, 0.971 WHIP; in non-save situations

 

[bdtay71]

I don't buy this whole "certain situations" nonsense.

Valverde is a pro. He knows that if he gives up a run, his team is likely to lose. There's no drop in concentration, there's as much pressure in that spot as having a one run lead. He prepares the same, should have the same focus, and knows his job is to put up a zero.

Maybe you can make some point about closers getting some work in blow outs, and how they don't have their usual mental edge. Maybe.

But to say that pitching in a tie game in the ninth is a spot where you shouldn't use your best reliever, you've lost the right to call Leyland dumb. Benoit has pitched more than an inning exactly twice all year. There's no reason to run him out there with Valverde ready to go.

There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.[/quote]


I agree. I also think it funny that anytime Betemit isn't in the line-up we whine about it but it was his horrid throw in the 9th that ultimately led to our demise (despite the blown call). Overall, Leyland is a good manager, IMO. I don't agree with everything he does but you gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[staegrac]

I don't buy this whole "certain situations" nonsense.

Valverde is a pro. He knows that if he gives up a run, his team is likely to lose. There's no drop in concentration, there's as much pressure in that spot as having a one run lead. He prepares the same, should have the same focus, and knows his job is to put up a zero.

Maybe you can make some point about closers getting some work in blow outs, and how they don't have their usual mental edge. Maybe.

But to say that pitching in a tie game in the ninth is a spot where you shouldn't use your best reliever, you've lost the right to call Leyland dumb. Benoit has pitched more than an inning exactly twice all year. There's no reason to run him out there with Valverde ready to go.

There are no lessons here. You put your best guy out there and he got beat. It happens.

I agree. I also think it funny that anytime Betemit isn't in the line-up we whine about it but it was his horrid throw in the 9th that ultimately led to our demise (despite the blown call). Overall, Leyland is a good manager, IMO. I don't agree with everything he does but you gotta take the good with the bad.[/quote]

then why does smokes play "certain situations" with his lineups? shouldnt he do the same with the BP?

We ostracize players when they underperform, they are professionals they should be able to perform thats what theyre paid for...but when a manager is ostracized because of the decisions he makes or made we are "stupid", JL is a professional and should be expected to perform as a professional and not hide behind an underperforming player/s

 

[beez]

You know why Valverde has all of his losses in non save situations? Because the game is tied and if he gives up a run they lose. Most closers do get their losses in non save situations. Granted he has not blown a save this year but even if he had 10 blown saves I bet he'd only have a couple losses to show from it. Like I said, if Cabrera was on the bench and had a shotty pinch hit average, would you be against Leyland putting him in a clutch 9th inning at bat? No...you wouldnt. Valverde is NO DIFFERENT. He's the best reliever, as a manager you should never be blamed for putting him in a clutch situation. The only thing you could blame Jim for is pitching Valverde too long if he would leave him in for 2 innings+ or something along that point. Valverde has to get it done.

 

[jmakula87]

Valverde is obviously our best reliever, but he also obviously struggles when it isn't a save situation. JL has always been one for going by the statistics and percentages. "Oh, Don Kelly is 3-5 against this pitcher, we better play him at 3rd" but then doesn't use that same thinking when it comes to this.

We all understand that Valverde SHOULD be able to pitch the same in non-save situations as save situations, but his stats clearly show that he isn't the same pitcher.

But I'm afraid we are all going to have to agree to disagree on this

Meh, it almost seems annoying when the Tigers have an off day. What am I supposed to do if I can't listen to them on the radio

 

[deathroh]

[quote="tycobb420":jhvfv9vs]From Bless You Boys: Jose Valverde in save situations: 35-35, 0.51 ERA, 0.971 WHIP; in non-save situations