MBB vs Michigan

[boogerlovejoy]

So you lose to Ohio State by 30, squeak by Rutgers in overtime, and lose to Michigan by 10. You arguably have the most talented team in the country...when does Izzo get some blame?

Now. He was out coached today. Ward couldn't guard Wagner yet there he was time after time.

No offensive flow. Nobody who can create their own shot. We should dominate inside but bailed on trying sometime early in the 2nd half.

Stupid.

 

[MSUMatt28]

There's time to turn it around, but the team looks a bit fraudulent at the moment. Other teams are figuring out how to attack us. Go at Winston and Langford off the dribble, and if that doesn't work hope you have a big who can shoot 3's, and try to limit the impact JJJ has blocking shots (though he's still getting his). I think the team has gotten to relying too much on the bail out block anyway and is not being sound in a lot of other ways defensively. I don't see any rotations happening when guys are getting beat off the dribble.

Offensively the halfcourt offense needs a lot of work and they lack a go-to guy right now because Bridges hasn't delivered often enough.

 

[Spartanmack]

Now. He was out coached today. Ward couldn't guard Wagner yet there he was time after time.

No offensive flow. Nobody who can create their own shot. We should dominate inside but bailed on trying sometime early in the 2nd half.

Stupid.

it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.

 

[Spartanmack]

There's time to turn it around, but the team looks a bit fraudulent at the moment. Other teams are figuring out how to attack us. Go at Winston and Langford off the dribble, and if that doesn't work hope you have a big who can shoot 3's, and try to limit the impact JJJ has blocking shots (though he's still getting his). I think the team has gotten to relying too much on the bail out block anyway and is not being sound in a lot of other ways defensively. I don't see any rotations happening when guys are getting beat off the dribble.

Offensively the halfcourt offense needs a lot of work and they lack a go-to guy right now because Bridges hasn't delivered often enough.

I agree, all is not lost and the team looks soft, entitled and kinda rudderless - who is or is going to become the leader on the floor to get this figure out. I was talking to my brother who is a michigan grad and he had a lot of the same criticisms we see here - his biggest question was why aren't you guys running pick and roll - with Ward, JJJ and Bridges you can always have a lineup on the floor where it's an option. All I could say was we've been wondering the same thing for a few seasons now.

And I guess I got the answer to my question about whether or not Ward was a good passer and able to find open guys when double teamed.

 

[gotime909]

it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.

I agree with all of this

 

[gotime909]

I’d like to see Miles moved back to the 4 and see what happens. Just run Bridges, Jackson Ward with Schilling mixed in at the 4/5. Even if Goins has to take on some minutes at the 3.

 

[johnny2x2x]

it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.

There are similarities, but the biggest difference is Dantonio is 8-3 vs Michigan, Beilein is 8-11 vs Michigan State.

I kind of see that Beilein has remained consistent in his style for a long time, and that the College game and the NBA for that matter have come around to his style. Beilein has 5 guys on the floor who can all handle the ball and who can all shoot. He gets those types of players.

Izzo still has post players and guys who are limited with the ball in their hands.

It's 3 bad games, I think this off week comes at a good time, I want to see the offense moving the ball a lot more.

 

[MSUMatt28]

it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.

I agree with the comments regarding Beilein. He probably is the Dantonio of college basketball. Look at the guys he's put into the NBA (Hardaway, GR III, Stauskas to name a few), and none of them were that highly rated as recruits.

I think we are overrating the talent in some of Izzo's more recent teams. The DV led team from 2 years ago? They were led by DV, Forbes, and Costello. None of them were ever top 75 recruits, but are all in the NBA. Yet they were one of the best offensive teams (if not the best) that Izzo ever had and one of the better shooting teams in the NCAA in recent memory. Go back and watch the way that team moved the ball. It was beautiful. They lost ultimately because they weren't athletic enough defensively and ran into an opponent that had a once in a lifetime day. I agree Izzo mismanaged Deyonta Davis that year though. The Harris/Payne, led team WAS pretty talented but got done in by injuries (but still managed an Elite 8 and Big Ten Tournament title).

As for this year's team, they ARE pretty loaded when we consider they have 2 kids that will probably go in the top 12 of next year's draft (though I think Bridges is sliding at this point), but I am not sure if Winston, Langford, or Ward will ever play in the NBA and they are all still just sophomores. So maybe we have overrated the talent a little bit on this team too, though there is certainly enough talent to win big in today's world and this IS still a team that hung with Duke all the way and stomped 2 pretty good teams in North Carolina and Notre Dame. Their problems appear as much mental as physical right now. It's now on Izzo as a Hall of Fame coach to figure it out.

 

[Spartanmack]

There are similarities, but the biggest difference is Dantonio is 8-3 vs Michigan, Beilein is 8-11 vs Michigan State.

I kind of see that Beilein has remained consistent in his style for a long time, and that the College game and the NBA for that matter have come around to his style. Beilein has 5 guys on the floor who can all handle the ball and who can all shoot. He gets those types of players.

Izzo still has post players and guys who are limited with the ball in their hands.

It's 3 bad games, I think this off week comes at a good time, I want to see the offense moving the ball a lot more.

Another big difference is Dantonio has never taken an unranked team into AA and beaten the 4th ranked wolvernines - and it wasn't lucky bounces or biased officiating (I almost said it wasn't "bad" officiating but quickly realized that's the only kind of officiating in college basketball). We were outplayed and outcoached. But it's not about whether Beilein is a better coach than Dantonio - that would be a ridiculous argument. The point is Beilein is similar to Dantonio and develops players better than Izzo does.

Izzo has remained consistent in his style too, and that's kind of the problem. It's not just 3 bad games - I don't think you would be saying that if we hadn't played so many cupcakes where the offense wasn't tested (except by Rutgers, which is actually a very good defensive team). It's 2 really bad games and a bunch of other not great or even bad games. In the beginning, after the dook loss I wasn't so worried because I thought the ceiling for us was higher than dook's given our age and the opportunity for Izzo to get the offense worked out. At best, we've stagnated and now appear to be regressing.

The talent is there and the coaching talent should be as well - although I've wondered about the assistant staff for awhile now. He has to become a bit more dynamic. The obvious thing to me is to at least implement the pick and roll - that's one way to compensate for post players who are limited with the ball in their hands. It just seems so obvious that I feel like we have to be missing some reason why it's not part of the offense.

 

[Spartanmack]

I’d like to see Miles moved back to the 4 and see what happens. Just run Bridges, Jackson Ward with Schilling mixed in at the 4/5. Even if Goins has to take on some minutes at the 3.

I agree but it matters who you have playing the 3 - you need someone that can shoot otherwise teams can just guard Bridges like he's the 3 and it won't solve anything. JJJ is shooting well enough that he can even play the 3 (on offense) making teams think twice about how to guard him and Bridges.

 

[Spartanmack]

btw, now our soft B1G schedule probably hurts us even more. It will be harder to tell if this team is improving with just Purdue and Indiana left as the only teams with winning records in conference so far and Indiana is the only decent team we play twice - the rest are wisco, ill, maryland and rutgers.


It's pretty amazing that just 10 days ago we were worried that we'd be 16-2 and untested in B1G play.

 

[MSUMatt28]

btw, now our soft B1G schedule probably hurts us even more. It will be harder to tell if this team is improving with just Purdue and Indiana left as the only teams with winning records in conference so far and Indiana is the only decent team we play twice - the rest are wisco, ill, maryland and rutgers.


It's pretty amazing that just 10 days ago we were worried that we'd be 16-2 and untested in B1G play.

Yeah, they could run the table the rest of the way (which they won't) and not get a #1 seed now due to the lack of quality wins available.

And OSU just won by 22 at Rutgers. So either OSU might be pretty good or that escape at home vs Rutgers is even worse as far as indicative of how the team is playing right now. Winning the Big Ten might not even be reachable now given that I don't think Purdue is going to lose many.

 

[MSUMatt28]

I’d like to see Miles moved back to the 4 and see what happens. Just run Bridges, Jackson Ward with Schilling mixed in at the 4/5. Even if Goins has to take on some minutes at the 3.

This is not a bad idea. Probably what makes sense then is to put McQuaid into the starting lineup to add another shooter and maybe help the perimeter D (though unless Cassius plays better than Saturday not much will help that). Another possibility is playing Cassius and Tum Tum together, but I see that only as a short term thing to do when you want to get Cassius some shots playing off the ball. It would depend on the size of the other team's 2 guard since Cassius lacks physical strength.

I am not sure who you put on the bench though. Perhaps Ward turning him into a super 6th man type of role. For a player whose relationship with Izzo seems to have been a bit touchy of late, I am not sure how that would fly. It also takes easily the team's best post option out of the equation, and I am not sure how that helps the halfcourt offense. I don't think you can bring JJJ off the bench because of his defense.

 

[Spartanmack]

This is not a bad idea. Probably what makes sense then is to put McQuaid into the starting lineup to add another shooter and maybe help the perimeter D (though unless Cassius plays better than Saturday not much will help that). Another possibility is playing Cassius and Tum Tum together, but I see that only as a short term thing to do when you want to get Cassius some shots playing off the ball. It would depend on the size of the other team's 2 guard since Cassius lacks physical strength.

I am not sure who you put on the bench though. Perhaps Ward turning him into a super 6th man type of role. For a player whose relationship with Izzo seems to have been a bit touchy of late, I am not sure how that would fly. It also takes easily the team's best post option out of the equation, and I am not sure how that helps the halfcourt offense. I don't think you can bring JJJ off the bench because of his defense.

is it that crazy to have JJJ playing the 3? I still think the pick and roll is the most obvious immediate fix - doesn't everyone learn that in middle school basketball? It's probably a lot easier than JJJ learning how to be an effective 3.

 

[MSUMatt28]

is it that crazy to have JJJ playing the 3? I still think the pick and roll is the most obvious immediate fix - doesn't everyone learn that in middle school basketball? It's probably a lot easier than JJJ learning how to be an effective 3.

I don't see JJJ as a 3 full-time given you have to be able to handle the ball out there, and I don't see him being able to do that. He does float outside quite a bit in order to get open looks from 3 as it is. Maybe the answer is to get Bridges inside more often on post opportunities. He doesn't seem to regularly be able to beat college 3's (who alot of times are really 2's) off the dribble from out on the wing, and that is turning him into a one-dimensional outside shooter, who has had more bad days than good out there. However, he should have a size, strength, athleticism advantage on most 3's by moving down onto the block a little more often (and being left-handed helps there too). If teams try to go provide help with another big, that opens up things for Ward and Jackson more.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't see JJJ as a 3 full-time given you have to be able to handle the ball out there, and I don't see him being able to do that. He does float outside quite a bit in order to get open looks from 3 as it is. Maybe the answer is to get Bridges inside more often on post opportunities. He doesn't seem to regularly be able to beat college 3's (who alot of times are really 2's) off the dribble from out on the wing, and that is turning him into a one-dimensional outside shooter, who has had more bad days than good out there. However, he should have a size, strength, athleticism advantage on most 3's by moving down onto the block a little more often (and being left-handed helps there too). If teams try to go provide help with another big, that opens up things for Ward and Jackson more.

yeah, makes sense. the simple fact is, it doesn't seem like it should be so hard to get him more involved in the offense - whether it's moving him down to the block or instituting more pick and rolls (I hate to sound like a broken record but that's something we should be able to do with JJJ, Ward and Bridges - even Schilling, he is a great finisher, he should be able to run that play while spelling any of the other 3). Either way, you don't have to develop JJJ as a dedicated 3, but moving him outside more and putting Bridges on the block is worth a shot.

You can put McQuaid at the 3, like you said but is he much better with the ball? Seems like he just puts his head down and runs around the arc, never quite catching the screen to open him up for the shot and nowhere near fast enough to get by anyone - plus he's looking at the floor and therefore has no idea what his options are. When he's on, he's a much better shooter than JJJ so that could get better matchups for Bridges to exploit.

 

[johnny2x2x]

We fell to #9 in both polls.

 

[Spartanmack]

highest ranked 3 loss team in the country. definitely could be worse and it would be hard to disagree.

 

[gotime909]

I agree but it matters who you have playing the 3 - you need someone that can shoot otherwise teams can just guard Bridges like he's the 3 and it won't solve anything. JJJ is shooting well enough that he can even play the 3 (on offense) making teams think twice about how to guard him and Bridges.

I just really don't want Bridges there. I just don't think he has the ball skills to excel there and settles on his mediocre jumper far too often. Get him back around the basket where he can use his amazing athleticism. It really makes me question Izzo when i here him say he wants to see Bridges shoot even more. Like what the fuck is the guy watching?????

 

[Spartanmack]

I just really don't want Bridges there. I just don't think he has the ball skills to excel there and settles on his mediocre jumper far too often. Get him back around the basket where he can use his amazing athleticism. It really makes me question Izzo when i here him say he wants to see Bridges shoot even more. Like what the fuck is the guy watching?????

yeah, something has to change, that's for sure.