MSU basektball recruiting

[Sbee]

but it's more than just one game and don't forget- we got our asses beat by MTSU with DD on the bench while getting less than zero offense from goins and wollenman. that kinda blows up your last line a bit. anyone who thinks Goins gives us a better chance to win any game is nuts, including Izzo. I think izzo sat DD as much or more to show he wouldn't tolerate mistakes but goins and wollenman didn't make any fewer blunders - maybe he thought DD would stay another year because if he wasn't getting minutes in college he must not be NBA ready. limiting minutes and yanking someone every time they screw up doesn't seem to be a very effective way to develop a player's talent. give him the minutes, maybe not 30+ but a lot more than 18. let him make a few mistakes and maybe take it out on him in practice but don't put goins and wollenman in for meaningful minutes just bc DD got beat off the dribble.

Izzo has always used the bench as a teacher early in the year, he really didn't have the chance to do that with Ward this year. Izzo is not afraid to lose a game early on to improve, he famously sat Marvin Clark against TSU when we lost in EL in the 2015 (final four year). Dawson was hurt and Clark thought his minutes were entitled, didn't give the effort on defense. It's not just getting beat either, it's not knowing what to do, being in the right spot. He'd rather have someone who plays better team defense and will do it right, I think he's done a good job of developing his team throughout the season.

Goins got hurt in that MTSU game but he gave us the best chance to hang with Upshaw, we could have lost either way but DD was clueless on the perimeter. His defense was great against post players, bad on the perimeter. If anyone thinks that DD gave us a better chance to win that game, they must only be paying attention to one end of the floor, like most basketball fans do. They think that if a shot goes in that a player is playing well, if they miss, they're playing poorly and don't pay much attention to the 90% of the time they don't have the ball in their hands.

 

[Sbee]

I'd bet that there wouldn't be a single other coach that would have played Goins over Ward. If you don't play these kids through the mistakes, how do they learn? I would've been fine with a 25/15 minute split with Ward/Goins, not 18/18/4 with Ward/Goins/VanDyk. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE

Van Dyk minutes were either at the 4 (mainly in the 7 games when Miles was out) and only at the 5 when there was major foul trouble. Ward played 19.8, Goins 18.3. Ward was routinely bad on ball screens, he was slow (especially when fatigued) and had trouble staying low in his stance, and didn't do a good job of hedging. When a team sees that, they can attack that every time down the floor and either get a good shot or pick up a foul because someone was a step slow or out of position. You can live with Goins lack of production on offense in those scenarios if you have the right lineup on the floor, you can't go Tum, McQuaid, Aherns, with Goins, but if you have scorers around him, you'll be fine on that end.

Having an offensively challenged big man is a lot different than a perimeter player, a guy like Tum that you can sag off of and alter the entire offense vs a guy like Goins who can at least make a bunny lay up. You can't ignore someone in the post like you can outside. Sometimes the situation dictated that we had to roll with Goins. That won't be a problem next year though.

 

[johnny2x2x]

Van Dyk minutes were either at the 4 (mainly in the 7 games when Miles was out) and only at the 5 when there was major foul trouble. Ward played 19.8, Goins 18.3. Ward was routinely bad on ball screens, he was slow (especially when fatigued) and had trouble staying low in his stance, and didn't do a good job of hedging. When a team sees that, they can attack that every time down the floor and either get a good shot or pick up a foul because someone was a step slow or out of position. You can live with Goins lack of production on offense in those scenarios if you have the right lineup on the floor, you can't go Tum, McQuaid, Aherns, with Goins, but if you have scorers around him, you'll be fine on that end.

Having an offensively challenged big man is a lot different than a perimeter player, a guy like Tum that you can sag off of and alter the entire offense vs a guy like Goins who can at least make a bunny lay up. You can't ignore someone in the post like you can outside. Sometimes the situation dictated that we had to roll with Goins. That won't be a problem next year though.

Fans generally pay attention to only 50% of the game, the offensive half. Ward got 20 minutes a game, if his defense and stamina were a little better he'd have gotten about 22 a game. I don't see him getting many more minutes this year as Schilling will play 12+ minutes a game, and people will bitch about that too, but Schilling is excellent defending ball screens and will cover the biggest opponent for long stretches. And both Schilling and Jackson have shown the ability to guard much smaller players, and with our size teams are surely going to go small against us at times.

Tillman's minutes will largely depend on his defense and rebounding too. Offensively, Tillman is ready to be a plus big man right now, but I doubt he can move his feet well enough to defend to MSU standards. He's going to have to play with energy and he's going to have to rebound or Goins will be getting more minutes than him

And I love Goins in an 8-10 minutes off the bench role. The guy can bring instant rebounding and energy as well as guard the 3 or 4 and hit the occasionally mid range jumper and finish on pick and rolls.

The team is loaded! To me the whole key is how Winston and McQuaid develop. If Winston gets stronger and McQuaid can use his first healthy off season to make that jumper more consistent a Natty is the ceiling.

I see minutes breaking down something like this:
Bridges 33
Ward 23
Jackson 17
Langford 24
Winston 22
Schilling 13
Tum 16
McQuaid 14
Goins 10
Tillman 10
Ahrens 7
Grad transfer Wing 11

 

[Sbee]

Fans generally pay attention to only 50% of the game, the offensive half. Ward got 20 minutes a game, if his defense and stamina were a little better he'd have gotten about 22 a game. I don't see him getting many more minutes this year as Schilling will play 12+ minutes a game, and people will bitch about that too, but Schilling is excellent defending ball screens and will cover the biggest opponent for long stretches. And both Schilling and Jackson have shown the ability to guard much smaller players, and with our size teams are surely going to go small against us at times.

Tillman's minutes will largely depend on his defense and rebounding too. Offensively, Tillman is ready to be a plus big man right now, but I doubt he can move his feet well enough to defend to MSU standards. He's going to have to play with energy and he's going to have to rebound or Goins will be getting more minutes than him

And I love Goins in an 8-10 minutes off the bench role. The guy can bring instant rebounding and energy as well as guard the 3 or 4 and hit the occasionally mid range jumper and finish on pick and rolls.

The team is loaded! To me the whole key is how Winston and McQuaid develop. If Winston gets stronger and McQuaid can use his first healthy off season to make that jumper more consistent a Natty is the ceiling.

I see minutes breaking down something like this:
Bridges 33
Ward 23
Jackson 17
Langford 24
Winston 22
Schilling 13
Tum 16
McQuaid 14
Goins 10
Tillman 10
Ahrens 7
Grad transfer Wing 11

Don't forget the possibility of Ben Carter getting his 6th year, they are supposed to hear about it any day, though they've been saying that for 2 weeks.

I don't know if we even get a grad transfer 2/3 honestly, the opportunity for that dried up when Bridges came back. Ideally we wanted a freshman so he could play 16 or 17 minutes and then be ready for a big role in 2018-2019. We're fine with what we have now IF we don't have any injuries on the wing. If we do, then we're very thin, but we could always play Winston and Tum together for a stretch in the right situation.

A grad transfer is generally looking to increase his playing time or profile, either a guy from a top program who's not going to play at all (Tom Herzog) or a guy from a smaller school that sees a big role at a better level of competition (Brandon Wood). I don't think we have much to offer any grad transfer, a bit part on a loaded team isn't really appealing, they might as well stay home and play 30 minutes at Valpo or wherever.

I do think we add one or two transfers that have to sit out a year because we potentially lose a ton after the 2018 season (Schilling, Tum, Bridges, Jackson, Ward, Carter).

 

[gotime909]

Fans generally pay attention to only 50% of the game, the offensive half. Ward got 20 minutes a game, if his defense and stamina were a little better he'd have gotten about 22 a game. I don't see him getting many more minutes this year as Schilling will play 12+ minutes a game, and people will bitch about that too, but Schilling is excellent defending ball screens and will cover the biggest opponent for long stretches. And both Schilling and Jackson have shown the ability to guard much smaller players, and with our size teams are surely going to go small against us at times.

Tillman's minutes will largely depend on his defense and rebounding too. Offensively, Tillman is ready to be a plus big man right now, but I doubt he can move his feet well enough to defend to MSU standards. He's going to have to play with energy and he's going to have to rebound or Goins will be getting more minutes than him

And I love Goins in an 8-10 minutes off the bench role. The guy can bring instant rebounding and energy as well as guard the 3 or 4 and hit the occasionally mid range jumper and finish on pick and rolls.

The team is loaded! To me the whole key is how Winston and McQuaid develop. If Winston gets stronger and McQuaid can use his first healthy off season to make that jumper more consistent a Natty is the ceiling.

I see minutes breaking down something like this:
Bridges 33
Ward 23
Jackson 17
Langford 24
Winston 22
Schilling 13
Tum 16
McQuaid 14
Goins 10
Tillman 10
Ahrens 7
Grad transfer Wing 11

If Goins averages 10 minutes a game with this lineup then Izzo should be fired.

I see 80 minutes to split between Ward, Schilling, Jackson and Tillman. I don't see how Goins gets 10 of those minutes every night.

 

[JScottWriter]

Who cares about minutes in the recruiting thread?

 

[gotime909]

Who cares about minutes in the recruiting thread?

MSUMatt28, Spartanmack, sbee, johnny and myself were the last 5 people before you that commented on this thread and all 5 of us commented about minutes so.......

 

[Spartanmack]

Izzo has always used the bench as a teacher early in the year, he really didn't have the chance to do that with Ward this year. Izzo is not afraid to lose a game early on to improve, he famously sat Marvin Clark against TSU when we lost in EL in the 2015 (final four year). Dawson was hurt and Clark thought his minutes were entitled, didn't give the effort on defense. It's not just getting beat either, it's not knowing what to do, being in the right spot. He'd rather have someone who plays better team defense and will do it right, I think he's done a good job of developing his team throughout the season.

Goins got hurt in that MTSU game but he gave us the best chance to hang with Upshaw, we could have lost either way but DD was clueless on the perimeter. His defense was great against post players, bad on the perimeter. If anyone thinks that DD gave us a better chance to win that game, they must only be paying attention to one end of the floor, like most basketball fans do. They think that if a shot goes in that a player is playing well, if they miss, they're playing poorly and don't pay much attention to the 90% of the time they don't have the ball in their hands.

He didn't do a very good job developing the team this season and I don't think he did a whole lot to develop DD either. You want to give him a free pass, fine he's earned it but don't keep making excuses for obvious mistakes. Goins is a walk on and he sucks - he shouldn't get equal minutes for players like Ward or DD. And nobody is saying those guys should have played 30+ but they were clearly under-played.

Marvin Clark? You don't really think that's a valid comparison, do you? He was a mediocre recruit that started 7 games. His highlights include leading the team in rebounding for 1 game when he had a team high 6 against the Citadel. You can point to how successful Izzo was with benching Marvin Clark (who had much, much lower expectations, talent, ability and upside than DD or Ward) on a team that made the Final Four and probably would have without Clark, by the way, but the teams DD and Ward played on haven't gotten out of the first weekend and the arguably more talented team (certainly more seasoned and healthier) got blown out in the first game. As for Goins and MTSU, Goins sucks and you don't have to have DD on the perimeter - don't play man-on-man or switch because Goins was getting eaten alive too. MTSU blew out every lineup we put on the floor - it was a buzz saw but again, it's just one game. Izzo didn't under-utilize Marvin Clark but he definitely did under-utilize DD and Ward.

 

[Spartanmack]

If Goins averages 10 minutes a game with this lineup then Izzo should be fired.

I see 80 minutes to split between Ward, Schilling, Jackson and Tillman. I don't see how Goins gets 10 of those minutes every night.

you're not paying attention - Goins plays great perimeter defense.

 

[Sbee]

He didn't do a very good job developing the team this season and I don't think he did a whole lot to develop DD either. You want to give him a free pass, fine he's earned it but don't keep making excuses for obvious mistakes. Goins is a walk on and he sucks - he shouldn't get equal minutes for players like Ward or DD. And nobody is saying those guys should have played 30+ but they were clearly under-played.

Marvin Clark? You don't really think that's a valid comparison, do you? He was a mediocre recruit that started 7 games. His highlights include leading the team in rebounding for 1 game when he had a team high 6 against the Citadel. You can point to how successful Izzo was with benching Marvin Clark (who had much, much lower expectations, talent, ability and upside than DD or Ward) on a team that made the Final Four and probably would have without Clark, by the way, but the teams DD and Ward played on haven't gotten out of the first weekend and the arguably more talented team (certainly more seasoned and healthier) got blown out in the first game. As for Goins and MTSU, Goins sucks and you don't have to have DD on the perimeter - don't play man-on-man or switch because Goins was getting eaten alive too. MTSU blew out every lineup we put on the floor - it was a buzz saw but again, it's just one game. Izzo didn't under-utilize Marvin Clark but he definitely did under-utilize DD and Ward.

Just used Marvin Clark as an example of Izzo using the bench as a teacher and not being afraid to lose a game to prove a point to someone. The whole bit about under utilizing Marvin Clark was your was speculation on your part, I never said that or even thought that.

 

[Sbee]

you're not paying attention - Goins plays great perimeter defense.

Never said that either. I said that he was better on ball screens than ward and that he moved his feet better that DD, both of those things are true.

Izzo said many times that Ward was good for a 3 or 4 minute stretch and then got tired and made more mistakes and was more likely to pick fouls up. DJ Stephens who handles most of the in game substitutions said the same thing, but what do they know?

 

[johnny2x2x]

Brian Bowen has recently said that Bridges returning caught him off guard. He wants to be a starter and won't be one at MSU.

 

[MSUMatt28]

Again, to each their own there. But I love people thinking that they're good enough to be One and Done and yet are afraid of having to compete for playing time. They want everything handed to them. Truly good players will find a way to be on the court regardless of position and regardless of whoever else is there.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Again, to each their own there. But I love people thinking that they're good enough to be One and Done and yet are afraid of having to compete for playing time. They want everything handed to them. Truly good players will find a way to be on the court regardless of position and regardless of whoever else is there.

Post of the day! :nod:

 

[Spartanmack]

Just used Marvin Clark as an example of Izzo using the bench as a teacher and not being afraid to lose a game to prove a point to someone. The whole bit about under utilizing Marvin Clark was your was speculation on your part, I never said that or even thought that.

no, it's not speculation - you made the comparison to drive home your point. But it doesn't make your point because we didn't lose any games because Marvin Clark got benched so he could learn a lesson, whether Izzo was willing to lose one or not.

 

[Spartanmack]

Never said that either. I said that he was better on ball screens than ward and that he moved his feet better that DD, both of those things are true.

Are you sure you never said that because it seems like you're saying that right here when you repeated your comment about DD unable to cover Upshaw...

A lot of that depended on the opponent, if you had a big man that could shoot you were better off with Goins in there than DD because he could move his feet. Goins at least stood a chance to check Upshaw from MTSU, DD got beat over and over, I don't think Izzo wants to lose a game to stave off negative recruiting.

And here you are saying back on page 70 where you specifically say DD wasn't good on the perimeter which is why he was on the bench against MTSU, recall above you said Goins was in against MTSU because he gave us a chance against Upshaw of MTSU...

...Also, as far as MSU and freshmen, those are two bad examples. Izzo played Ward for every minute he possibly could, his ball screen defense was awful last year, he wasn’t in good enough of shape to stay low, move his feet quickly, hedge, etc. when he got tired he got worse, slower, other teams knew that and attacked it. As for DD, he played quite a bit for a freshmen, big men are almost always projects and DD was as well. DD averaged 18 minutes, about the same as Zach Randolph. Karl Anthony Towns and Joel Embid played 23. Big men rarely play 30+ and it doesn’t hurt their draft stock. Also, DD wasn’t good on the perimeter against stretch 4’s and 5’s, which is why he was on the bench against MTSU.

Is it still your claim that you never said that?

Izzo said many times that Ward was good for a 3 or 4 minute stretch and then got tired and made more mistakes and was more likely to pick fouls up. DJ Stephens who handles most of the in game substitutions said the same thing, but what do they know?

Apparently they don't know how badly Goins sucks. I like this though - you're always going to the experts for those mic drop comments like "what do they know." Remember the last one before you disappeared - how I was wrong about Deshone Kaiser because some draft experts said he was a great QB...

Edit - well, the Cleveland Browns drafted him so they also think he's a great QB and we all know how good the Browns are at picking QBs, particularly QBs from Notre Dame.

 

[Spartanmack]

Again, to each their own there. But I love people thinking that they're good enough to be One and Done and yet are afraid of having to compete for playing time. They want everything handed to them. Truly good players will find a way to be on the court regardless of position and regardless of whoever else is there.

this is the model at Kentucky, they get guys willing to share minutes which is why guys like Karl Anthony Towns can play just 18 minutes a game since he has other one-and-dones spelling him. Heck, I bet even Goins would be on board with that if he got an offer from Calipari.

 

[Sbee]

no, it's not speculation - you made the comparison to drive home your point. But it doesn't make your point because we didn't lose any games because Marvin Clark got benched so he could learn a lesson, whether Izzo was willing to lose one or not.

I think it's safe to say that we lost to TSU because Izzo benched Marvin Clark. MSU was without Branden Dawson who was recovering from an injury, Clark played 11 minutes, all in the first half. Izzo challenged him at halftime and Clark basically rolled his eyes, so he sat the entire 2nd half and overtime. We were forced to play Bess extended minutes who was just coming back from an injury himself. Izzo basically said that he wasn't going to be forced to play a guy who's not giving the proper effort regardless of the state of the roster.

Of course you can't go back and re-play the game inserting Marvin Clark in the 2nd half, but given what happened and Izzo's words, it's not hard to figure out.

 

[Sbee]

Are you sure you never said that because it seems like you're saying that right here when you repeated your comment about DD unable to cover Upshaw...



And here you are saying back on page 70 where you specifically say DD wasn't good on the perimeter which is why he was on the bench against MTSU, recall above you said Goins was in against MTSU because he gave us a chance against Upshaw of MTSU...



Is it still your claim that you never said that?



Apparently they don't know how badly Goins sucks. I like this though - you're always going to the experts for those mic drop comments like "what do they know." Remember the last one before you disappeared - how I was wrong about Deshone Kaiser because some draft experts said he was a great QB...

Edit - well, the Cleveland Browns drafted him so they also think he's a great QB and we all know how good the Browns are at picking QBs, particularly QBs from Notre Dame.

You're just dying to bring up Deshone Kizer. Go ahead and start a Deshone Kizer jerk off thread so you we can argue if a QB is good if they go in the 2nd round of the draft. It's fucking hilarious that you're so desperate to discuss Kizer that you draw such a lame parallel in a discussion about basketball.

Again, I'll continue to bring up Izzo in this argument because he knows what he's talking about, a hell of a lot more than either of us. Of course he's not infallible and makes mistakes, but I trust him a lot more than a guy who really doesn't understand the way basketball is played and just watches the ball when it's in the air. If someone makes shots they're good, if they don't, they're bad, never mind the other 90% of the time when they don't have the ball in their hands.

Now let's argue this over 100 more posts because your fragile ego doesn't allow you to ever let anything go.

 

[Sbee]

Also, regarding Brian Bowen, he's taking an unofficial visit to Oregon, wouldn't be surprised if he ends up there. Personally I don't really want the kid, if the rumors are true about him being overly concerned with playing time, shots, and being one and done, he doesn't fit in with what we're trying to do. Everyone wants to make the league but it seems like his individual goals are everything and team goals are minimal.