MSU @ Indiana (8pm)

[LuciousGameWinner]

The loss of Craig Evans is really felt on the DL. That transfer from Nebraska is garbage. Also all we've heard for the past two years is how good cooper will be, potentially better than calhoun. Does he even have a sack? Raquan Williams and Malik are the only good players on the DL.

 

[deathroh]

I agree with sbee, you guys outgained them and got more first downs, clearly there's no legitimate reason for you guys to think a change would help unless you're a naive idiot. Everything's good

 

[Sbee]

But it's not change for the sake of change. It's not like there aren't valid reasons for thinking O'Connor needs to be replaced. Accusing people you disagree with of not thinking it through is a lazy argument. Does it make sense to try to bring O'Connor along at this point? O'Connor clearly doesn't have a rapport with the wideouts. Wouldn't it be better to have DeWeaver or lewerke develop that relationship over the next three games or more? Forget about Indy, that's not happening. Right now it looks like TOC's ceiling is being a serviceable QB. What's the upside to MAYBE getting him there? It's too late for him and we get zero return in '17 and beyond from any progress O'Connor makes.

I think that depends on your goals. If you're OK with 5-7 and building toward next year while hurting the brand of the program and potentially hurting us in recruiting, that's fine. I want to salvage as much of this season as possible and win as many games as we can even though we have no chance at a title. I want to play the qb who gives us the best chance of winning each game, I think that's TOC. Serviceable is what we are looking at this year from the qb spot. I'd give lewerke reps in non critical situations and hopefully in a bowl game. If we had any kind of qb battle I'd be more open to a change , but all through spring and fall camp TOC was clearly the best qb on the roster according to the coaches. If it were close, yes, make a change, but I don't want to sacrifice wins this year.

I think our problems are mainly in the trenches, offensive and defensive. Beadle and McGowan are really slow, we're not running the ball well at all and not pressuring qb's. McDowell and r Williams are studs but we're getting very little from cooper and Jones wouldn't play on any msu team in the last 5 years.

Our best hope to salvage the season and get a decent bowl is to hope the offensive line comes together and defense gets healthy.

 

[Spartanmack]

it does depend to some degree on goals but right now we're not guaranteed to go 5-7 or better with O'Connor and we're not guaranteed to win more games with him than other players. But if we stick with him, we are guaranteed to be starting over again next year with another inexperienced QB - and we could be doing it coming off of a 5-7 season. Personally, I think we can probably win as many games with someone else as we can with O'Connor.

I also take issue with the assumption that changing something that's not working necessarily hurts "the brand" - especially that it somehow hurts the brand more than the product we're putting on the field right now. Change could be what saves the brand while soldiering on in the wrong direction could do some real damage to the brand. Seriously, how is sticking with O'Connor protecting the brand? This presumption is entirely unfounded - it's an baseless assumption.

If serviceable is what we're looking for, then I think we should work to get a QB with a future up to that level, not wasting time trying to get TOC there. If there truly was no QB battle this year, then we're in real trouble going forward. Maybe there wasn't a battle because the coaches felt comfortable with TOC's 4 years of knowledge and familiarity and didn't really open it up to a real competition. I have a hard time believing what we're putting on the field is head and shoulders above our other options.

I also completely disagree that the problems are in the trenches - the problems are everywhere. Sure we don't have the sacks we want and they're not the dominant force we expected but our problems on defense, prior to all the injuries anyway, were in the secondary. The o-line is a different story - this is the first non-WAC o-line I've seen that is better at pass protection than run blocking. That's a disgrace and it's a recipe for disaster for our offense. The problems are everywhere and we should be looking at changes everywhere - the secondary has sucked long enough to be taking a look at Barnett, the play calling is bad enough that Warner and Bollman deserve a look. O'Connor's play is bad enough that his spot should be under scrutiny. The list goes on.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

I actually think that sticking with O'Connor hurts the "brand" because as a recruit if a program is so loyal to the older guys that they won't even give the younger guys a look I'm going elsewhere! Most guys aren't O'Connor, they're not OK with waiting 4 years before playing any meaningful snaps. In fact 99% percent of these kids want to play right away especially when they know they are better than the 5th year guy who is average at best.
Just my opinion though.

And as Mack said, one thing is guaranteed if you stick with O'Connor, we will be having this conversation all over again next year.

 

[gotime909]

I think that depends on your goals. If you're OK with 5-7 and building toward next year while hurting the brand of the program and potentially hurting us in recruiting, that's fine. I want to salvage as much of this season as possible and win as many games as we can even though we have no chance at a title. I want to play the qb who gives us the best chance of winning each game, I think that's TOC. Serviceable is what we are looking at this year from the qb spot. I'd give lewerke reps in non critical situations and hopefully in a bowl game. If we had any kind of qb battle I'd be more open to a change , but all through spring and fall camp TOC was clearly the best qb on the roster according to the coaches. If it were close, yes, make a change, but I don't want to sacrifice wins this year.

I think our problems are mainly in the trenches, offensive and defensive. Beadle and McGowan are really slow, we're not running the ball well at all and not pressuring qb's. McDowell and r Williams are studs but we're getting very little from cooper and Jones wouldn't play on any msu team in the last 5 years.

Our best hope to salvage the season and get a decent bowl is to hope the offensive line comes together and defense gets healthy.

I gotta go back to the 2012 season with Maxwell. We sputtered with him all season. In the bowl game we went to Cook and he led us to the win. The following season Dantonio still went back to Maxwell early in the season. Then it appeared that Cook had took the job until the last series vs ND when Dantonio put Maxwell in for what in my opinion was the worst quarterbacked series in MSU history. Cook would not look back after that game. My point is, there isn't a doubt in my mind that we win that ND game had loyalty not gotten in the way of that battle and Cook had been the starter from game one that year(if not late the year before).


We had an amazing year that year, but what if.....

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

MSU was the only team that could've beat FSU that year.

 

[Sbee]

it does depend to some degree on goals but right now we're not guaranteed to go 5-7 or better with O'Connor and we're not guaranteed to win more games with him than other players. But if we stick with him, we are guaranteed to be starting over again next year with another inexperienced QB - and we could be doing it coming off of a 5-7 season. Personally, I think we can probably win as many games with someone else as we can with O'Connor.

I also take issue with the assumption that changing something that's not working necessarily hurts "the brand" - especially that it somehow hurts the brand more than the product we're putting on the field right now. Change could be what saves the brand while soldiering on in the wrong direction could do some real damage to the brand. Seriously, how is sticking with O'Connor protecting the brand? This presumption is entirely unfounded - it's an baseless assumption.

If serviceable is what we're looking for, then I think we should work to get a QB with a future up to that level, not wasting time trying to get TOC there. If there truly was no QB battle this year, then we're in real trouble going forward. Maybe there wasn't a battle because the coaches felt comfortable with TOC's 4 years of knowledge and familiarity and didn't really open it up to a real competition. I have a hard time believing what we're putting on the field is head and shoulders above our other options.

I also completely disagree that the problems are in the trenches - the problems are everywhere. Sure we don't have the sacks we want and they're not the dominant force we expected but our problems on defense, prior to all the injuries anyway, were in the secondary. The o-line is a different story - this is the first non-WAC o-line I've seen that is better at pass protection than run blocking. That's a disgrace and it's a recipe for disaster for our offense. The problems are everywhere and we should be looking at changes everywhere - the secondary has sucked long enough to be taking a look at Barnett, the play calling is bad enough that Warner and Bollman deserve a look. O'Connor's play is bad enough that his spot should be under scrutiny. The list goes on.

Of course you're not guaranteed anything in terms of wins but based on everything we know, TOC was clearly the best QB throughout spring and fall camp, there was no really competition. The question is do you want to sacrifice potential wins now for potential wins later, that's what we'd be doing playing Lewerke.

It's true that it's hard to isolate one area on defense, like you said with sacks. you can get sacks because of pressure from the front 4 or you because of great coverage, you can get INT's because of pass pressure and the QB doesn't have time to go through progressions and forces the ball before routes develop. You could pretty much point to anything and make an argument using that logic. From what I've seen, the DE's are really not up to the caliber we've seen here over the last few years. Losing starting linebackers and other defensive players have hurt as well, but the defense has played well enough to be 4-0.

I just look at last nights game as being lost because of penalties on the o-line and horrible special teams along with some key drops by Corely and Madaris. TOC completed 60% of his passes for 263 and a QBR of 151, 3TD's, 0 INT, and ran for 33 including sacks. Of course QB play could always be better but we lost because of the reasons I just mentioned. I think people want him benched based on the Wisconsin game, he was more than good enough to win last night.

 

[Sbee]

I gotta go back to the 2012 season with Maxwell. We sputtered with him all season. In the bowl game we went to Cook and he led us to the win. The following season Dantonio still went back to Maxwell early in the season. Then it appeared that Cook had took the job until the last series vs ND when Dantonio put Maxwell in for what in my opinion was the worst quarterbacked series in MSU history. Cook would not look back after that game. My point is, there isn't a doubt in my mind that we win that ND game had loyalty not gotten in the way of that battle and Cook had been the starter from game one that year(if not late the year before).


We had an amazing year that year, but what if.....

This is a different season and they are different players, Cook was the best QB in MSU history. I don't know if Dantonio has the blind loyalty that you think he does, he did pull Maxwell eventually, he benched Muma for Geiger, Chris Norman for Tawan Jones. He plays the guys that give us the best chance to win. I think if Lewerke is outplayed TOC he'd be starting. If it were a coin flip he might go with the experienced guy but given all indications that wasn't the case between these two. Maxwell and Cook's battle was hotly contested all through spring and fall, this last one was pretty much no contest.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

This is a different season and they are different players, Cook was the best QB in MSU history. I don't know if Dantonio has the blind loyalty that you think he does, he did pull Maxwell eventually, he benched Muma for Geiger, Chris Norman for Tawan Jones. He plays the guys that give us the best chance to win. I think if Lewerke is outplayed TOC he'd be starting. If it were a coin flip he might go with the experienced guy but given all indications that wasn't the case between these two. Maxwell and Cook's battle was hotly contested all through spring and fall, this last one was pretty much no contest.

I was never more confident in benching a guy than after 2 games of Maxwell. I guess you give Lewerke a shot but thats just a bandage when youre lacking in several facets. Its disappointing but all programs are going to have the hiccup/rebuilding year. I was pretty sure this could have been one of those years. When Conklin left (as he should have) that was a bit too much to absorb and expect a 10 win season. I suppose since Oconnor played well in several previous games I thought it could have been a 10 win season. He just isnt getting the job done.