Pitcher mad over this?

[tomdalton22]

WHAT A JOKE!

From ESPN:

In the eyes of Colby Lewis, Blue Jays outfielder Colby Rasmus sure could use a lesson in baseball etiquette.

[+] EnlargeColby Lewis
Peter Llewellyn/USA TODAY Sports
Colby Lewis took exception to a fifth-inning bunt by Colby Rasmus during the Rangers-Blue Jays game on Saturday. Lewis felt the bunt single went against baseball etiquette.
Lewis, the Rangers' starting pitcher, exchanged words with Rasmus during the fifth inning of Texas' 4-1 loss Saturday. The right-hander was irked when Rasmus laid down a two-out bunt single with the Blue Jays up 2-0 and the Rangers playing the shift.

"I told [Rasmus] I didn't appreciate it," Lewis said, according to MLB.com. "You're up by two runs with two outs and you lay down a bunt. I don't think that's the way the game should be played."

Lewis, who fell to 6-7 with the loss, felt Rasmus' bunt was a selfish act.

"I felt like you have a situation where there is two outs, you're up two runs, you have gotten a hit earlier in the game off me, we are playing the shift, and he laid down a bunt basically simply for average," Lewis said.

On top of the bunt, Lewis said the fact that Rasmus didn't try to steal second base further proved he was just concerned about upping his average.

"[Rasmus] didn't steal within the first two pitches to put himself in scoring position," Lewis said. "That tells me he is solely looking out for himself, and looking out for batting average. And I didn't appreciate it."

After the game, Rasmus said he was trying to help his team and did not understand why Lewis took offense.

"I'm just trying to help my team and he didn't like it -- so sorry about it," Rasmus said, according to MLB.com. "I'm not here to try to please the other side, I'm here to help my team, and I had an opportunity where I could, and I took advantage of it."

Rasmus went 2-for-4 on the day. He is hitting .223 this season.

 

[manchild98]

They should suspend Lewis 10 games for complaining about this. A guy should be able to bunt whenever he wants in a close game...even late in a game during a no hitter.

More teams should bunt guys when the defense is playing a shift. It just makes good sense.

 

[UMRules06]

Ehh some people on this board disagree with bunting altogether! Don't know why, especially in the shift situation. Why play right into the defense's hands by swinging away into the shift?

In this case Lewis is clearly being an idiot. A 2 run lead in the 5th inning is hardly "game over" time. You try to get on base anyway you can to help keep the inning going. Easiest way he saw was laying down the bunt. Nothing wrong with that. Don't play the shift on him next time if you don't like it!

 

[Mitchrapp]

Ehh some people on this board disagree with bunting altogether! Don't know why, especially in the shift situation. Why play right into the defense's hands by swinging away into the shift?

In this case Lewis is clearly being an idiot. A 2 run lead in the 5th inning is hardly "game over" time. You try to get on base anyway you can to help keep the inning going. Easiest way he saw was laying down the bunt. Nothing wrong with that. Don't play the shift on him next time if you don't like it!

The ones you're alluding to are saying you're giving up an at bat to move a runner to second. Many more times than not we're right..the shift is different, I don't know about Ramus but a guy like Ortiz even if he could bunt it doesn't make much sense - by swinging away he's capable of doing so much more.

 

[UMRules06]

The ones you're alluding to are saying you're giving up an at bat to move a runner to second. Many more times than not we're right..the shift is different, I don't know about Ramus but a guy like Ortiz even if he could bunt it doesn't make much sense - by swinging away he's capable of doing so much more.

I'm with you on the sacrifice bunt. I'm not a huge fan of it per se, but I don't mind managers pulling it out in late game situations when you are down a run. I am in favor of bunting against the shift though.

I understand it's not a sexy move. But the same reason you are against the sacrifice bunt, is exactly why I'm for bunting against the shift. In one case the offense is conceding an out. In the other case, the defense is conceding a hit. Why not take it? It also forces them to rethink their defensive strategy against you in future at bats.

If you're David Ortiz, ok maybe not. He's one of the few exceptions though since he is quite possibly the slowest runner in MLB, and one of the best power hitters all at once.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Ehh some people on this board disagree with bunting altogether!

I'm one of them; let's just get rid it.

Why assume it ever makes strategic sense, simply because it's been around since 1800 forever?

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm with you on the sacrifice bunt. I'm not a huge fan of it per se, but I don't mind managers pulling it out in late game situations when you are down a run. I am in favor of bunting against the shift though.

I understand it's not a sexy move. But the same reason you are against the sacrifice bunt, is exactly why I'm for bunting against the shift. In one case the offense is conceding an out. In the other case, the defense is conceding a hit. Why not take it? It also forces them to rethink their defensive strategy against you in future at bats.

If you're David Ortiz, ok maybe not. He's one of the few exceptions though since he is quite possibly the slowest runner in MLB, and one of the best power hitters all at once.

Why is it "conceding an out"? Not like it's bunt against the shift for a hit or an out if you swing away. I bet more shift players don't know how to bunt..

Another drawback, you try and bunt but aren't successful you start in the hole 0-1. I don't think it's easy to say Avila could bunt or similar players.

 

[UMRules06]

I'm one of them; let's just get rid it.

Why assume it ever makes strategic sense, simply because it's been around since 1800 forever?

If you don't like sacrifice bunts then I'm pretty much with you. I'm lukewarm to them. I think Reb posted some numbers that it only makes sense to do it with a runner on 2nd base and no outs? Something like that.

Why is bunting against the shift a bad strategic move though?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Why is bunting against the shift a bad strategic move though?

Just look at the guys who hit against a shift..can they bunt, a power guy who should never bunt in any situation etc..shifts been around for years now and rarely does someone bunt..must be a reason.

 

[tinselwolverine]

If you don't like sacrifice bunts then I'm pretty much with you. I'm lukewarm to them. I think Reb posted some numbers that it only makes sense to do it with a runner on 2nd base and no outs? Something like that.

Why is bunting against the shift a bad strategic move though?

I was being facetious.

Something about the statement "some people on this board disagree with bunting altogether!" was amusing to me.

 

[UMRules06]

Why is it "conceding an out"? Not like it's bunt against the shift for a hit or an out if you swing away. I bet more shift players don't know how to bunt..

Another drawback, you try and bunt but aren't successful you start in the hole 0-1. I don't think it's easy to say Avila could bunt or similar players.

Every strategy has possible drawbacks. And the sacrifice bunt was the "conceding an out" scenario. On the flip side the defense playing a huge shift is "conceding a hit" if the player lays one down. Neither scenario will work 100% of the time obviously.

Players need to spend some time practicing it preferably during spring training or the off season. Bunting doesn't strike me as a skill that takes a lot of effort to at least become competent at. Maybe it is? I really don't know.

In the Tigers case, the only person who it makes sense for is Avila. He gets shifted on constantly, and he's not exactly a stellar hitter anyway. That's why we keep coming back to him. VMart is one of the best hitters in baseball right now, so obviously I don't want him bunting all that much.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Just look at the guys who hit against a shift..can they bunt, a power guy who should never bunt in any situation etc..shifts been around for years now and rarely does someone bunt..must be a reason.

The hitter in question is hitting .223...he's probably more likely to be put out hitting away into the shift than he would have been bunting he is bunting...that's probably the reason.

 

[UMRules06]

Just look at the guys who hit against a shift..can they bunt, a power guy who should never bunt in any situation etc..shifts been around for years now and rarely does someone bunt..must be a reason.

The reason is macho pride. "I don't need to bunt, I'm an awesome hitter" type stuff.

There's something effeminate about a power hitter laying down a bunt, when he's known for hitting the occasional 400 foot bomb. That's the reason guys don't like to do it, not because it doesn't make strategic sense.

 

[Mitchrapp]

The hitter in question is hitting .223...he's probably more likely to be put out hitting away into the shift than he would have been bunting he is bunting...that's probably the reason.

I assume you're talking about Avila. He hits at a nice .223 clip :nod:..you sure he could get a bunt down and beat it out better than 1 in 5? I'm not so sure.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Just look at the guys who hit against a shift..can they bunt, a power guy who should never bunt in any situation etc..shifts been around for years now and rarely does someone bunt..must be a reason.

Oh...you meant "must be a reason hitters rarely bunt under a shift..." I thought you were wondering what the reason this hitter bunted with a shift on...

 

[Mitchrapp]

The reason is macho pride. "I don't need to bunt, I'm an awesome hitter" type stuff.

There's something effeminate about a power hitter laying down a bunt, when he's known for hitting the occasional 400 foot bomb. That's the reason guys don't like to do it, not because it doesn't make strategic sense.

No it's because he can get doubles and home runs and drive in runs. The job for those guys are RBI.

 

[UMRules06]

I assume you're talking about Avila. He hits at a nice .223 clip :nod:..you sure he could get a bunt down and beat it out better than 1 in 5? I'm not so sure.

Absolutely he could. There's literally NO DEFENDER over by third base. If he works on it and gets better he could absolutely do better than 1 in 5.

Here's an excerpt from an article I posted before on this topic:

The undisputed king of bunting to beat the shift is Carlos Pena. Since 2008, with nobody on, Pena has attempted a bunt 65 times. He?s bunted the ball fair 33 times, and he?s reached base 23 times. Even with practice, Pena?s right around a 50/50 fair/not-fair rate, but he?s turned better than a third of his attempts into bases. We find Jay Bruce at 30 attempts, with nine fair and five successful. Brian McCann also has 30 attempts, with eight fair and six successful. What?s clear is that bunting against the shift isn?t automatic. What?s also clear is that it?s worked often, and that these hitters could do better if they just practiced their bunting more.

Source: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/more-about-bunting-and-beating-the-shift/

 

[Mitchrapp]

Oh...you meant "must be a reason hitters rarely bunt under a shift..." I thought you were wondering what the reason this hitter bunted with a shift on...

No. I want my power hitter, to not bunt. I also thinks a bunt attempt, for Avila, at best he starts the count 0-1.

 

[UMRules06]

No it's because he can get doubles and home runs and drive in runs. The job for those guys are RBI.

Avila is a home run and RBI guy now? That's news to me. Their job is to help the team win first and foremost. Nobody's job is to just hit doubles and home runs. Don't get an out and that's just fine by me.

Now again I'm not advocating ALWAYS bunting against the shift, or even bunting OFTEN against the shift. I do agree you don't want to constantly take the bat out of a guy's hands. But once in a while, just take the free hit and keep the defense guessing.

 

[tinselwolverine]

No. I want my power hitter, to not bunt. I also thinks a bunt attempt, for Avila, at best he starts the count 0-1.

Yeah, yeah, I thought you meant the hitter in this story, Colby Rasmus.

As far as Avila, rather than bunting every time he walks up to the plate, I would prefer he just launch his body into the pitch, and wear one for the team to get on base.