Position upgrades

[LKP]

1st round rbs are never a value pick imo....especially with a shitty oline like ours. Id love seeing mg3 in honalulu blue. Then hed average 3 ypc in our offense and id hate him and blame mayhew for trying to fix the run game for the 3rd time by drafting an early round rb without fixing the line first. Only that idiot wouldnt remember the first 2 times hes tried that. Best sucked ass at running the ball. Leshoure sucked at everything except getting caught smoking pot. Our line wpuld quickly turn mg3 to shit and itd just give me yet another reason to hate mayhew.

Leshoure wasa late 2nd using 3rd and 4th. We had two first round tackles, second round center and sims playing well when leshoure played.

Best did well. Our best ypc year was that year. Two first round tackles, 2nd round center and sims playing well.

Bush 4.5 ypc in 2013

2014 injuries

 

[mhughes0021]

Leshoure wasa late 2nd using 3rd and 4th. We had two first round tackles, second round center and sims playing well when leshoure played.

Best did well. Our best ypc year was that year. Two first round tackles, 2nd round center and sims playing well.

Bush 4.5 ypc in 2013

2014 injuries

In 22 games HE PLAYED IN...AKA HE WASNT INJURED ACCORDING TO OUR MEDICAL STAFF....he averaged 3.7 ypc, 12 carries per game and 43 yards. Wow...hes so awesome at running the ball.

 

[inkfreq]

3 positions that need upgrading are DT, OL and RB. Top 3 draft picks i hope. Doesn't always work like that though.
I can still see a WR and DB in the mix there too...

There are good players all over the draft. I wouldn't worry about the round, just about how they develop.

1st round sure doesn't mean can't miss in the NFL, and there's more than one Hall of Fame player who went undrafted.

Hell, best defensive player of all time (IMO) was drafted in the 14th round in 1961.

 

[LKP]

In 22 games HE PLAYED IN...AKA HE WASNT INJURED ACCORDING TO OUR MEDICAL STAFF....he averaged 3.7 ypc, 12 carries per game and 43 yards. Wow...hes so awesome at running the ball.

He had turf toe most of 2010 (since like Week 3 or 4). Nice try though. You have the memory of a peanut.

2011 did well. 5-0 start. Receiver and runner. He was a good weapon. Loads of talent. Amazing speed. We were just unlucky. We needed a playmaker bad in 2010. Late 1st using your 2nd and 4th round value is when you take that risk.

And the point was, we had alot of 1st and 2nd round talent on the Oline. Traded for Sims in 2010 who was playing well too.

 

[mhughes0021]

He had turf toe most of 2010 (since like Week 3 or 4). Nice try though. You have the memory of a peanut.

2011 did well. 5-0 start. Receiver and runner. He was a good weapon. Loads of talent. Amazing speed. We were just unlucky. We needed a playmaker bad in 2010. Late 1st using your 2nd and 4th round value is when you take that risk.

And the point was, we had alot of 1st and 2nd round talent on the Oline. Traded for Sims in 2010 who was playing well too.

wait let me get this straight.....so we start a guy at running back who is having a hard time running the ball? yup...sounds like the lions to me!

 

[LKP]

wait let me get this straight.....so we start a guy at running back who is having a hard time running the ball? yup...sounds like the lions to me!

Best was hurt. But due to Millen (Lions still rebuilding), the 2010 Lions had to roll with a hurt Best.

2011 he did well.

2012 LeShoure was an unknown coming off an injury. 2nd round pick. Of course you see what you have in him. Bell did well (5 YPC). Best never recovered and there was still a possibility he could have going into the season. But given the number of injuries to the secondary and weapons, not having Best was just piling on to the bad luck.

 

[inkfreq]

There is NO reason at all to even discuss LeShoure. Not a single one of us has any clue what the hell happened there.

The guy was productive his first season. In fact, he was the best running back we had in a long long time.

Following season? He barely sees the field and word is he's in Schwartz "dog house"? For what? No one ever knew.

Caldwell comes in, and by then we don't know if the attitude has just gotten toxic, or what, but he never sees the field.

Face it, the guy was a productive starter, who lost his starting job for... well, we have no idea. Yep, they went and got Bush, and he was the guy they wanted, but the fall from grace is just unexplainable.

 

[cheeno]

There is NO reason at all to even discuss LeShoure. Not a single one of us has any clue what the hell happened there.

The guy was productive his first season. In fact, he was the best running back we had in a long long time.

Following season? He barely sees the field and word is he's in Schwartz "dog house"? For what? No one ever knew.

Caldwell comes in, and by then we don't know if the attitude has just gotten toxic, or what, but he never sees the field.

Face it, the guy was a productive starter, who lost his starting job for... well, we have no idea. Yep, they went and got Bush, and he was the guy they wanted, but the fall from grace is just unexplainable.

Define productive. A less than 4 YPC average and no runs over 16 yards?

 

[mhughes0021]

Define productive. A less than 4 YPC average and no runs over 16 yards?

hawt.


and again the term "best we have" is used to describe a polished piece of poop.

yes Stafford is the best ever piece of poop we ever had.

Leshoure was the best piece of poop running back we had that year.

its all relative when you talk about the lions....its alllllll relative.

"The best" is used to describe a turd that ran for less that 4 ypc....yippie.

 

[inkfreq]

Define productive. A less than 4 YPC average and no runs over 16 yards?

9 TDs from a guy primarily used as a goal line back. Be real, the ball went to Calvin to move it down field, and to LeShoure near the end zone.

I am not arguing he was a great running back, but 9TDs is production a lot of good backs would like to have. Like anything else, you have to put it in the context of the scheme. They didn't give him the ball in long situations much, because he's not a home run hitter out there.

But he did put the ball in the end zone for us more than anyone since Barry. That's production. It's sure as shit not Pro Bowl, but there are a lot of productive players who are not Pro Bowl level too.

If anyone has any idea what got this guy on Schwartz's shitlist, clue me in. Did he sleep with his daughter or something?

 

[cheeno]

Would anyone give up two 1sts and a 2nd to grab Leonard Williams? I would seriously think about it.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Would anyone give up two 1sts and a 2nd to grab Leonard Williams? I would seriously think about it.

No. Trades like that seem to work out for the team getting the picks MUCH more often than it does for the team trading them.

I would NEVER make a trade like that unless it was for a QB. Even then (RGIII) its a massive risk!

 

[inkfreq]

Is Williams likely to outproduce two first round players and a second, all by himself?

He's a phenomenal young player, but I just don't see his value as being that much.

In my opinion, teams should only trade up in one of two scenarios:

1. You think you're one special player away from being a champion, and you have a team that is about to be impacted by free agency, necessitating a rebuild. You go get that ring before you have to rebuild.

2. When you're a QB away from being a good team, and the number of potential impact QBs is very limited. This season, the Bills have a good defense and some powerful offensive weapons, but no franchise signal caller. The QBs available behind Mariotta and Winston aren't likely to be impact players, and even the #3 QB on the boards is not considered more than a serviceable backup caliber player. The Bills should consider moving up, the Chargers should not.

I honestly don't think you ever move up for a defensive player, because no matter how special they are coming out of college (Clowney as an example), they are likely to outproduce the next guy on the list by such an extensive margin that it's worth giving up the additional value.

It's a lot like trading a Porsche and a Ferrari for a Lamborghini. The Lambo might be the king of it's class, but is it really so much sweeter than owning the other two?

 

[mhughes0021]

Is Williams likely to outproduce two first round players and a second, all by himself?

He's a phenomenal young player, but I just don't see his value as being that much.

In my opinion, teams should only trade up in one of two scenarios:

1. You think you're one special player away from being a champion, and you have a team that is about to be impacted by free agency, necessitating a rebuild. You go get that ring before you have to rebuild.

2. When you're a QB away from being a good team, and the number of potential impact QBs is very limited. This season, the Bills have a good defense and some powerful offensive weapons, but no franchise signal caller. The QBs available behind Mariotta and Winston aren't likely to be impact players, and even the #3 QB on the boards is not considered more than a serviceable backup caliber player. The Bills should consider moving up, the Chargers should not.

I honestly don't think you ever move up for a defensive player, because no matter how special they are coming out of college (Clowney as an example), they are likely to outproduce the next guy on the list by such an extensive margin that it's worth giving up the additional value.

It's a lot like trading a Porsche and a Ferrari for a Lamborghini. The Lambo might be the king of it's class, but is it really so much sweeter than owning the other two?

I agree with this.....but with that said this team needs to start looking at need. They need a guy that can get to the qb in order to sustain the type of defense they played last year. Ansah has showed signs that he can grow into that. But Jason Jones is not the answer opposite him. Youre not going to get a quality pass rusher from the 4-3 DE position at the bottom of rd 1. So while I agree the trade up that high to grab a defensive player would be slightly ridiculous.....I have to partially disagree that the player you can select at 23 would be even in the same realm as a Williams....he wouldn't be...not close. Now we could still see a very quality DT or OT fall to that spot so we could retain value. But to say its only a slight drop off in talent at DE specifically isn't the case.

Edit...just looking at walter mock for a quick reference but after Williams you have Gregory who can go anywhere from pick 5-25 based on if teams care about smoking pot or not. After that you don't have a prototypical 4-3 DE drafted again until rd3. Big drop off in talent and production. Gregory not so much but theres like a 1% chance he falls to us especially with cinci drafting ahead of us.

SOoooo....if my goal is to get a top pass rusher out of the draft (which more than likely isn't mayhews goal) in this situation id probably wait to see if Gregory fell to around 15 and look to trade up instead of losing that much value to trade into the top 5 to get Williams.

 

[inkfreq]

I agree with this.....but with that said this team needs to start looking at need. They need a guy that can get to the qb in order to sustain the type of defense they played last year. Ansah has showed signs that he can grow into that. But Jason Jones is not the answer opposite him. Youre not going to get a quality pass rusher from the 4-3 DE position at the bottom of rd 1. So while I agree the trade up that high to grab a defensive player would be slightly ridiculous.....I have to partially disagree that the player you can select at 23 would be even in the same realm as a Williams....he wouldn't be...not close. Now we could still see a very quality DT or OT fall to that spot so we could retain value. But to say its only a slight drop off in talent at DE specifically isn't the case.

Edit...just looking at walter mock for a quick reference but after Williams you have Gregory who can go anywhere from pick 5-25 based on if teams care about smoking pot or not. After that you don't have a prototypical 4-3 DE drafted again until rd3. Big drop off in talent and production. Gregory not so much but theres like a 1% chance he falls to us especially with cinci drafting ahead of us.

SOoooo....if my goal is to get a top pass rusher out of the draft (which more than likely isn't mayhews goal) in this situation id probably wait to see if Gregory fell to around 15 and look to trade up instead of losing that much value to trade into the top 5 to get Williams.

I agree.. we are not going to get that top edge pass rusher out of the #23 pick... but can you imagine what it would cost us to move up that high to get him?

Likelihood is, our first this year and our first next year doesn't get the job done. Add in our 2nd this year? Still no bueno.

Three firsts is probably the starting point. Washington gave up that to move up two spots to take RG3. Word has it the Titans are looking for a similar package for the #2 pick this season.

And bear in mind, that first rounder next year could be packaged to get Joey Bosa if you're going to move up. Having a wrecker like Bosa, the next J.J. Watt type player, would be even better than Williams.

And that's why I never advocate trading future firsts. There's always another guy next year that is the "next big thing". Even in weak drafts, there is always one guy they are calling a once in a generation guy... and 50% of the time, they bust too.

If you want to find top NFL talent, it's quantity over quality. You move back and get picks, you don't move up and give them away.

My rule of thumb in the draft is never move up.. and if you get an offer that includes a same round pick, you take it every time. Someone wants to give you the #30 and a third for the #23... you take it. You still make your first round pick, and you grab another. If no one offers you a same round pick, you make your pick and be happy with where you landed.

 

[cheeno]

Williams is the only guy in this class that stands out to me on film, if I had to compare him to someone it would be Gerald McCoy, a big man with a good get off and outstanding hands. Last year Donald was that for me, the year before Ansah. Admittedly I haven't watched as much film on guys this year as in years past but there is no one around where we are picking that makes that leap for me. I will be satisfied with a big body, Collins preferably, but I can understand going with an offensive skill position if one falls this year because of the potential value (as opposed to last years Millen throwback strategy).

 

[inkfreq]

Williams is the only guy in this class that stands out to me on film, if I had to compare him to someone it would be Gerald McCoy, a big man with a good get off and outstanding hands. Last year Donald was that for me, the year before Ansah. Admittedly I haven't watched as much film on guys this year as in years past but there is no one around where we are picking that makes that leap for me. I will be satisfied with a big body, Collins preferably, but I can understand going with an offensive skill position if one falls this year because of the potential value (as opposed to last years Millen throwback strategy).

I have to admit, the guy I woul dbe most excited about is Breshad Perriman, but he's not the guy I really want at all. I just love the idea of bringing in the son of a Lions great. It's really not a good reason to draft him, but there are plenty of good reasons to do that anyway. He's a good young player.

Eddie Goldman, Todd Gurley, and Jalen Collins woul dbe my top three for "really want" with La'el collins or DJ Humphries right up there as well.

There are probably 10 different guys that will be gone in that range I'd be very happy with.