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Sources: NCAA investigating Michigan football for alleged rule violations related to

In light of recent developments, the question I asked in an earlier post "why didn't they ask Stalion how he got the signals?" seems moot at this point since every Big 10 program apparently steals signs with certainty that they are accurate. That Stalion went to the extra measure now seems almost trivial. And the notion of Harbaugh connecting these specific dots is 20/10 hindsight.

Everyone does it, but everyone doesn't break rules to do it. There's a big difference and it doesn't trivialize the apparent lengths Stalions went to do it - particularly if those lengths are egregious violations of the letter or spirit of the rules.
 
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Deciphering another teams signals is not evidence of breaking rules - it's not illegal. Everyone (except some uofm DSF posters) gets that. It's how you go about it that can get you into trouble. So far all the "everyone does it" is just hand waiving and deflection.


What you're failing to acknowledge is that it's the conference commissioner that's attempting to overstep the bounds of his authority based on rumors and speculation. He's doing so at the behest of the other programs and he's attempting to get around the stated limit of his power (2 game suspension and $10k fine) by saying that Michigan violated a sportsmanship policy. Exceeding the 2 games requires approval from the leagues executive committee which is comprised of representatives from each school.

So, since collaboration amongst multiple members against another member would also be a violation of said sportsmanship policy it is actually quite relevant to point out to those institutions that continuing down this path will also likely result in punishments against their programs as well. Call it what you want, "glass houses", "everyone does it" or anything else. It also quite nicely establishes a clear bias when they have to go to court and can show all the shit the conference didn't enforce that is equal to or worse than what they're attempting to punish Michigan for.

Also, depending upon which team this guy worked for last year (it's suspected to be Illinois) then it also can point out how hilariously hypocritical it is for these coaches to be whining about this when they're doing the same thing themselves.

Also, not that it really matters anymore since he's already resigned, but there's still no evidence to show that Stallions actually broke any rules. Third parties attending games isn't against the rules, recording of signs bylaw only applies to the game you're currently playing. They're going to close the loopholes, they're likely going to helmet radios. He was operating in gray area but he didn't actually violate the bylaws directly.

The only thing that he's allegedly done that would be a violation is if that was him at the CMU-MSU game (I think it was) in which case there's already a precedent for that punishment, which is a suspension for the person who broke the rule (not the head coach) for an amount of game time equal to the amount of time they were in attendance at the future opponent's game. Baylor coach left at halftime which is why he only got a half game suspension.
 
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What you're failing to acknowledge is that it's the conference commissioner that's attempting to overstep the bounds of his authority based on rumors and speculation. He's doing so at the behest of the other programs and he's attempting to get around the stated limit of his power (2 game suspension and $10k fine) by saying that Michigan violated a sportsmanship policy. Exceeding the 2 games requires approval from the leagues executive committee which is comprised of representatives from each school.

No, I'm not. I haven't said anything about what should happen to uofm or that anything should and I'm unaware of any punishment the commissioner is seeking - everything I've read said the B1G hasn't recommended any punishment and is still investigating. I am rejecting the notion that this is based on rumors and speculation and the idea that you're still pushing that indicates how out of touch and unwilling you are to acknowledge there's obvious basis for this investigation.

So, since collaboration amongst multiple members against another member would also be a violation of said sportsmanship policy it is actually quite relevant to point out to those institutions that continuing down this path will also likely result in punishments against their programs as well. Call it what you want, "glass houses", "everyone does it" or anything else. It also quite nicely establishes a clear bias when they have to go to court and can show all the shit the conference didn't enforce that is equal to or worse than what they're attempting to punish Michigan for.

If that's the case, then investigate the teams collaborating as well, don't use that as an excuse to exonerate uofm - it's not a license to cheat.

Also, depending upon which team this guy worked for last year (it's suspected to be Illinois) then it also can point out how hilariously hypocritical it is for these coaches to be whining about this when they're doing the same thing themselves.

What's hilarious is some people are dumb enough to think that cheating isn't cheating if it doesn't lead to success on the field. This is just absurd.

Also, not that it really matters anymore since he's already resigned, but there's still no evidence to show that Stallions actually broke any rules. Third parties attending games isn't against the rules, recording of signs bylaw only applies to the game you're currently playing. They're going to close the loopholes, they're likely going to helmet radios. He was operating in gray area but he didn't actually violate the bylaws directly.

There's plenty of evidence, but it's difficult to conduct an investigation with a guy and a program that refuse to cooperate with said investigation.

The only thing that he's allegedly done that would be a violation is if that was him at the CMU-MSU game (I think it was) in which case there's already a precedent for that punishment, which is a suspension for the person who broke the rule (not the head coach) for an amount of game time equal to the amount of time they were in attendance at the future opponent's game. Baylor coach left at halftime which is why he only got a half game suspension.

Claiming buying tickets for non-staffers to attend future opponents games isn't illegal is a mealy mouthed excuse for technically complying with the rules. Even if they don't pay them, the tickets are compensation - it's no different than sending a staffer. It's a clear and obvious violation of the spirit of the rule - only the guilty party would make this excuse.
 
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I knew it was a waste of time to try to have an actual conversation with you. Honest question, do you make shit up because it's convenient for your argument or do you truly believe this shit you say? That's rhetorical, I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt.
 
I knew it was a waste of time to try to have an actual conversation with you. Honest question, do you make shit up because it's convenient for your argument or do you truly believe this shit you say? That's rhetorical, I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, telling me that I'm failing to acknowledge your BS is "having a conversation." Tell me, what did I make up? I won't hold my breath.
 
Yeah, telling me that I'm failing to acknowledge your BS is "having a conversation." Tell me, what did I make up? I won't hold my breath.

1. There's no evidence that anything improper was done by anyone other than Stallions, yet you state that there is as if it's indisputable fact. That's a lie. As a matter of fact, the only information that has been released is that the NCAA's investigation turned up nothing connecting Jim to what Stallions was doing. The exact opposite of what you're claiming to be the case.

2. You say "wait for the facts to come out" when it's Mel Tucker jerking off in a hotel room but as soon as the first unsubstantiated report comes out Jim is running a dirty program.

3. I never said that it didn't go against "the spirit" of the rule. And even though it does go against the "spirit" it does not violate the actual rules. That's been very well explained multiple times and even though it hurts your feelings that doesn't make it any less true.

4. You're either too stupid to understand what I was saying or you're not even bothering to try because you're so eager to be an insufferable cunt at every opportunity. When I said you're failing to acknowledge, the point was Michigan releasing the information about other teams was to a) setup the grounds for a lawsuit and b) to counter the claims by morons like you that this somehow provided them a competitive advantage.

5. Nobody said it's not a violation of the rules, but it's not creating an unlevel playing field like all the whiney-ass coaches, ADs and fans are claiming that it does. They're not all losing by 30+ because some superfan is good at charades, they're winning by 30+ because they have 35 NFL players on their roster and the rest of the conference, save for OSU, doesn't have 20 combined. You can call it cheating all you want but it's dishonest to imply that it provided any meaningful advantage and utterly ridiculous that coaches from other programs are complaining about it when they're doing it themselves.
 
1. There's no evidence that anything improper was done by anyone other than Stallions

this is really all that matters. Stalions did something improper. He got caught. He got suspended for his actions and ultimately got fired / resigned.

He was part of the UM coaching staff. JH is probably going to get a slap on the wrist, nothing more.
 
"a distinction without a difference" is how Pat Forde just described what we did vs. what other schools did to us.

So... according to John U. Bacon, at least a few other Big Ten schools (supposedly Rutgers and OSU) had our signals last year and we still kicked the shit out of them (both on the road) and they petulantly shared our signals and playcalls with Purdue for the Big Ten championship game, and we kicked their ass too.

I'm SURE every Big Ten coach that has an IQ over 5 knows all this is commonplace, if not exactly above board, but that just makes those that have whined publicly (Ryan Walters, and Allan Haller + plus all the ones ESPN granted anonymity to) all the more fucking pathetic.
 
"a distinction without a difference" is how Pat Forde just described what we did vs. what other schools did to us.

So... according to John U. Bacon, at least a few other Big Ten schools (supposedly Rutgers and OSU) had our signals last year and we still kicked the shit out of them (both on the road) and they petulantly shared our signals and playcalls with Purdue for the Big Ten championship game, and we kicked their ass too.

I'm SURE every Big Ten coach that has an IQ over 5 knows all this is commonplace, if not exactly above board, but that just makes those that have whined publicly (Ryan Walters, and Allan Haller + plus all the ones ESPN granted anonymity to) all the more fucking pathetic.

If you guys have nothing to worry about, why are you all fighting so hard about it? Seems like maybe you're not just trying to convince me and mack, but maybe yourselves too.
 
1. There's no evidence that anything improper was done by anyone other than Stallions, yet you state that there is as if it's indisputable fact. That's a lie. As a matter of fact, the only information that has been released is that the NCAA's investigation turned up nothing connecting Jim to what Stallions was doing. The exact opposite of what you're claiming to be the case.

I said no such thing, this is a flat out lie. I said there's plenty of evidence to warrant an investigation and if that investigation turns up violations as head coach Harbaugh bears responsibility for that regardless of whether or not he knew or was involved. The buck stops with him, compliance is on him. If he's going to talk about other programs and be critical of their culture, he better run a really tight ship and he and uofm fans need to be prepared to be criticized when they f up. Good try though.

2. You say "wait for the facts to come out" when it's Mel Tucker jerking off in a hotel room but as soon as the first unsubstantiated report comes out Jim is running a dirty program.

Again, another lie. I said I believe Mel Tucker that it was consensual but even if it is, he should still be fired because carrying on that way to me is a fireable offense. I said this before the investigation was complete but only because Tucker's confession was enough for me. I did say we'd have to wait for the investigation to see who was telling the truth and even then we may never know but that wouldn't change my mind about firing Tucker for cause. As for Harbaugh and this incident, see my response to your first lie above. Again, good try.

3. I never said that it didn't go against "the spirit" of the rule. And even though it does go against the "spirit" it does not violate the actual rules. That's been very well explained multiple times and even though it hurts your feelings that doesn't make it any less true.

Never said you didn't say it violated the spirit of the rule - that's 3 for 3 on lies about what I said. And you couldn't possibly offend me so don't worry, my 'feelings' are just fine. But violating the spirit of the rule is violating the rule as far as I'm concerned. And I think paying nonstaffers is no different than sending a staffer and giving nonstaffers tickets is compensation so I'm not convinced they've only violated the spirit of the rule. That's my opinion - I stand by it and make no apologies for it.

4. You're either too stupid to understand what I was saying or you're not even bothering to try because you're so eager to be an insufferable cunt at every opportunity. When I said you're failing to acknowledge, the point was Michigan releasing the information about other teams was to a) setup the grounds for a lawsuit and b) to counter the claims by morons like you that this somehow provided them a competitive advantage.

Don't flatter yourself, you're not very difficult to figure out - you're almost as obvious and simple as MC. I haven't said any of the things you've accused me of saying - perhaps it's you who is so eager to play the victim and pretend it's uofm against the world. It's why you and the handful of other crybaby hypocrite wolverine fans here are so annoying.

And so what? I don't have to acknowledge every instance of a rule violation to comment on any other. The fact that stuff is coming out about other programs isn't an exoneration of what uofm is accused of doing. And if you think it doesn't give a team a competitive advantage, then you're definitely a moron. Why do you think teams do it?

5. Nobody said it's not a violation of the rules, but it's not creating an unlevel playing field like all the whiney-ass coaches, ADs and fans are claiming that it does. They're not all losing by 30+ because some superfan is good at charades, they're winning by 30+ because they have 35 NFL players on their roster and the rest of the conference, save for OSU, doesn't have 20 combined. You can call it cheating all you want but it's dishonest to imply that it provided any meaningful advantage and utterly ridiculous that coaches from other programs are complaining about it when they're doing it themselves.

You don't know that it's not creating a uneven playing field. Just because most teams do it, doesn't mean some aren't better at it than others particularly if some are going to far greater, potentially illegal lengths to do it. A determination of whether or not a rule was broken doesn't hinge on whether or not it led to your success. To say "they do it too so we're even or innocent" or "we would have beat them by the same score anyway" is just stupid and shows a complete disregard for the rules, not to mention a total lack of class and character - like your football team.
 
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If you guys have nothing to worry about, why are you all fighting so hard about it? Seems like maybe you're not just trying to convince me and mack, but maybe yourselves too.

says the guy who along with spartanack are making up anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of all the posts on this topic on our board...
 
Guy who's been obsessively posting about another team on their message board for days on end: "It's others who are obsessed. I'm living rent free in their heads"
 
says the guy who along with spartanack are making up anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of all the posts on this topic on our board...

"is" not "are" and it's not even close to that number. 80%+ of this thread is whiney butthurt wolverine fans who think the world is out to get them and at least another 5% is more reasonable wolverine fans and tomdalton. That's a maximum of 15% that is our wildly amusing trolling of the whiners.
 
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Can't believe I missed this one...

...
5. Nobody said it's not a violation of the rules, but it's not creating an unlevel playing field like all the whiney-ass coaches, ADs and fans are claiming that it does. They're not all losing by 30+ because some superfan is good at charades, they're winning by 30+ because they have 35 NFL players on their roster and the rest of the conference, save for OSU, doesn't have 20 combined. You can call it cheating all you want but it's dishonest to imply that it provided any meaningful advantage and utterly ridiculous that coaches from other programs are complaining about it when they're doing it themselves.

LOLOLOLOL. Are you serious? SOMEONE said it's not a violation - that was you that said it. Here it is again in case you forgot...

3. I never said that it didn't go against "the spirit" of the rule. And even though it does go against the "spirit" it does not violate the actual rules. That's been very well explained multiple times and even though it hurts your feelings that doesn't make it any less true

This is next level stupid - it's in the same post for crap's sake.

LOLOLOLOL2 - you don't really think there are 35 NFL players on that roster, do you? They're definitely are a few NFL caliber players, but they're winning by 30+ because they're playing shitty teams.
 
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For my fellow Wolverines to read: "Either everyone's guilty, or no one is" by Dan Wetzel:

At Michigan, Connor Stalions allegedly ran a smash-and-grab sign-stealing operation. Ohio State, Rutgers and Purdue, meanwhile, were reportedly operating the equivalent of a criminal conspiracy. It was pure white-collar stuff.

In the end, they both stole, or participated in the stealing of, the same thing ? information on opponents' play signals in an effort to secure an advantage.

...

All we know is some still-unidentified entity hired a still-unidentified private investigator to uncover Stalions' antics in the hopes that the NCAA and the Big Ten would do exactly what they did ? fall for the okey doke and naively overreact.

Charlie Baker has been NCAA president since March. Tony Petitti has been Big Ten Commissioner since May. Neither has much experience with this stuff ? Baker was a politician, Petitti mostly a television executive.

They didn?t know what they didn?t know. Together they opened Pandora?s Box.

Mostly they listened to football coaches who view one kind of advanced scouting as gamesmanship, and another as a kind of crime. The coaches? reasoning? Sending around stolen signs and game plans is common practice, so they don?t care. What Connor Stalions did is apparently not so common, so they did care.

But who in their right mind would listen to such reasoning? Who would be so dumb to agree with it? Who would let the thieves define theft?

For the record, I do not care what the non-Michigan fans trolling our board believe or don't believe and I am not trying to convince them. If it makes you happy to say that though, go ahead. I don't care. it will probably also make you happy to stick your thumb up your butt.
 
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