Stupor Tuesday results

[Michchamp]

Agreed, especially when you look at the likely Republican choice. I think more significant than anything for Dems (regardless of whether nor not Bernie wins): there's a place in the mainstream Democratic Party for actual bold liberal ideas (regarding health care, public education, paid FML, etc.). Clinton (her candidacy, and possible eventual presidency) will suffer if she doesn't take notice.

I don't expect much from her. if anything, she may move even further to the Right out of spite. did you see the disclosures of the speaking fees she collected from the two years prior to this election campaign? she and her husband are DC scum. she knew she'd be running in 2016 and possibly facing a challenger from the left, but didn't care to even try to hide the fact that she's in big business' pocket.

yes, if she's the nominee I will grit my teeth and vote for her, but only because I believe she'll nominate better supreme court justices and department heads than Trump, Cruz, Rubio or even Kasich would, and that is important. I expect she herself will be around where Mitt Romney would while in office: cozy with Wall Street, pro "defense" without pushing for outright invasions of foreign soil (defense in the Orwellian sense of meaning "we can bomb whoever we want, wherever they are") and more or less reflecting DC consensus on all domestic issues (ie whatever the lobbyists on K Street want, she'll make sure to align with).

 

[Gulo Blue]

Agreed, especially when you look at the likely Republican choice. I think more significant than anything for Dems (regardless of whether nor not Bernie wins): there's a place in the mainstream Democratic Party for actual bold liberal ideas (regarding health care, public education, paid FML, etc.). Clinton (her candidacy, and possible eventual presidency) will suffer if she doesn't take notice.

Only because of the republican choice. Bernies appeal to moderates is about looking the other way one the extreme positions and focusing on the not-being-owned-by-Wall St part.

 

[Spartanmack]

I do not know why black people keep voting for her.

GET WITH THE PROGRAM, BLACK PEOPLE!

Another gem from the board's resident race baiter, who obviously is himself, a racist. Maybe some vote for her for the same reason some black people are conservative. Perhaps it's because not all black people are the same and they are capable of thinking for themselves. They don't all have the same views, goals, needs, etc. Maybe black people don't all believe what you think all black people should believe just because they are black.

 

[TheVictors]

Another gem from the board's resident race baiter, who obviously is himself, a racist. Maybe some vote for her for the same reason some black people are conservative. Perhaps it's because not all black people are the same and they are capable of thinking for themselves. They don't all have the same views, goals, needs, etc. Maybe black people don't all believe what you think all black people should believe just because they are black.

I'm certain the post was sarcastic

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm certain the post was sarcastic

possibly but I have not doubt he believes it - that all black people should think and vote a particular way.

Just like his 70+ year old doppleganger. When I read this I thought, wow, Bernie is michturd 40 years from now...

When you’re white, you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto. You don’t know what it’s like to be poor. You don’t know what it’s like to be hassled when you walk down the street or you get dragged out of a car.

When you make such blatantly false and racist statements, you're either an ignorant fool or a pandering scumbag politician, or both. People who think and say things like this are unfit to be President. "Bernie's statement comes as not only false, but also horribly and offensively racist. By Sanders' own words, the color of one's skin somehow equals a type of behavior or social status, which is the central crux of racism." Maybe black people shouldn't automatically vote for the guy.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What free shit? I pay so much in fucking taxes it makes we want to throw tea over the side of a boat but whose getting free shit? You don't mean food stamps, do you?

And it's simpler than that ...it's the Economy, stupid and the economy is good. People will say the love Bernie and others will applaud Trumps bombastic ways but when the curtain is closed, a lot will vote Clinton because she's the closest thing in terms of policy to the status quo and things just aren't that bad these days.

There are two economies now. One of them is doing great and growing. One isn't. In absolute terms, things are better than they've ever been, but people don't think in absolute terms. I think people feel like the game is rigged and they can't get ahead like they could have a generation ago. On one hand, we have more creature comforts than ever before, on the other it's provided by companies that gave up on 'the customer is always right' ages ago. If they screw you, there's not much you can do. You're sick of their BS, but you remain a customer because alternatives are few and difficult. And we're only warming up. I suspect we're heading for an age of gilded cages.

 

[Michchamp]

Only because of the republican choice. Bernies appeal to moderates is about looking the other way one the extreme positions and focusing on the not-being-owned-by-Wall St part.

i don't really think his positions are that extreme; he's basically a New Deal democrat. Nor do I think it's realistic to think he'd be able to pass his agenda as is.

it's just that the country has moved a lot further to the Right on economic issues over the last 30-40 years. the modern GOP has accomplished this because 1) they've successfully made social welfare and drug policies about race ("ghetto welfare queens with cadillacs") convincing white middle and lower class voters to abandon support for them; and 2) the average American isnt a historian or economist, and doesnt know that when Republicans complain about taxes being too high, the actual tax burden on the wealthy has dropped dramatically since the 1970's. they've also managed to convince Joe Beercan that an extra dollar of taxes is just as burdensome for Mitt Romney and the Koch Brothers as it is for him, and income from wages should be taxed at higher rates than income from investments or inherited wealth, which is pretty anti-freemarket when u think about it.

 

[TheVictors]

There are two economies now. One of them is doing great and growing. One isn't. In absolute terms, things are better than they've ever been, but people don't think in absolute terms. I think people feel like the game is rigged and they can't get ahead like they could have a generation ago. On one hand, we have more creature comforts than ever before, on the other it's provided by companies that gave up on 'the customer is always right' ages ago. If they screw you, there's not much you can do. You're sick of their BS, but you remain a customer because alternatives are few and difficult. And we're only warming up. I suspect we're heading for an age of gilded cages.

The aggregate, magic LINE shows things are good enough to keep the status quo in power vs demanding change. In 08 we were below that line, as was the case in 92 that opened the door for Bill C. Mid-91 we were above the line but tumbled quickly into the election and Bush was out.

 

[sggatecl]

I was reading 538 earlier and they had Sanders with like a 1% chance to win MI, polling around 38% compared to Billary's 50+%, but to Nate Silver's credit he said he had a gut feeling Bernie would do much better than projected. THe pollsters need to re-evaluate their technique.

it looks like he pulled in somewhere around 1/3 of the vote in Wayne County, which is a good sign for him. In the Southern states, the black vote is going overwhelmingly to Billary. He needs the black vote, and can't win without it.

I think the black vote in the bible belt isn't the same as the rust belt. Time will tell.

 

[Spartanmack]

There are two economies now. One of them is doing great and growing. One isn't. In absolute terms, things are better than they've ever been, but people don't think in absolute terms. I think people feel like the game is rigged and they can't get ahead like they could have a generation ago. On one hand, we have more creature comforts than ever before, on the other it's provided by companies that gave up on 'the customer is always right' ages ago. If they screw you, there's not much you can do. You're sick of their BS, but you remain a customer because alternatives are few and difficult. And we're only warming up. I suspect we're heading for an age of gilded cages.

I don't think that's true - people are starting to cut the cord from the cable companies as better content delivery options are responding to demand shifts. I see more and more solar panels on roofs of houses and lawns of big corporate campuses - tried to get them myself but I'd have to cut down a bunch of trees. The cult of Apple is probably still pretty strong, but old business models are being repudiated by a new generation of consumers and companies are responding to that - companies that don't adapt are gonna have their lunch eaten by those that do.

The entity that has fallen behind the most is the government - the FDA is totally ineffective at protecting to the food supply, the EPA not only can't protect water supply, in several cases they're actually poisoning it themselves. They're all operating under outdated rules and methods. My friend employs 90 people at a state of the art manufacturing facility that he says is regulated like he was running an underground coal mine - totally wasteful, does nothing to improve safety, or working conditions, just makes it that much harder to operate in the US.

 

[tomdalton22]

i don't really think his positions are that extreme; he's basically a New Deal democrat. Nor do I think it's realistic to think he'd be able to pass his agenda as is.

it's just that the country has moved a lot further to the Right on economic issues over the last 30-40 years. the modern GOP has accomplished this because 1) they've successfully made social welfare and drug policies about race ("ghetto welfare queens with cadillacs") convincing white middle and lower class voters to abandon support for them; and 2) the average American isnt a historian or economist, and doesnt know that when Republicans complain about taxes being too high, the actual tax burden on the wealthy has dropped dramatically since the 1970's. they've also managed to convince Joe Beercan that an extra dollar of taxes is just as burdensome for Mitt Romney and the Koch Brothers as it is for him, and income from wages should be taxed at higher rates than income from investments or inherited wealth, which is pretty anti-freemarket when u think about it.

How is that anti-free market?

 

[Michchamp]

I think the black vote in the bible belt isn't the same as the rust belt. Time will tell.

true. I think in SC they described Sanders' attempts to reach African American voters as "hamhanded" and forced. The Clintons & DNC know that in some areas, particularly the Bible belt, the preachers deliver the votes. Bernie being less religious than Billary (or less willing to pretend to be religious) I could see his pragmatic "let's focus on the economy, healthcare, and education first" & "believe in whatever you want" approach offending the Reverends, who then go back on Sunday and talk about what a great "friend" Billary has been to them.

 

[Spartanmack]

How is that anti-free market?

It's not - taxing something for the second time (unconstitutionally) isn't anti-free market just because they at least have the good sense to tax it at a lower rate the second time around. It's also not true that wealthy people's tax burden hasn't dropped dramatically since the 70s - if that was the case then why are top earners paying an ever-increasing portion of tax revenue? It's also not true that the right has successfully made social welfare and drug policies about race. It's true that the left has made it about race and convinced their base that Republicans did it.

Basically, as with most of his posts, there isn't any truth to this one at all.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't think that's true - people are starting to cut the cord from the cable companies as better content delivery options are responding to demand shifts. I see more and more solar panels on roofs of houses and lawns of big corporate campuses - tried to get them myself but I'd have to cut down a bunch of trees. The cult of Apple is probably still pretty strong, but old business models are being repudiated by a new generation of consumers and companies are responding to that - companies that don't adapt are gonna have their lunch eaten by those that do.

The entity that has fallen behind the most is the government - the FDA is totally ineffective at protecting to the food supply, the EPA not only can't protect water supply, in several cases they're actually poisoning it themselves. They're all operating under outdated rules and methods. My friend employs 90 people at a state of the art manufacturing facility that he says is regulated like he was running an underground coal mine - totally wasteful, does nothing to improve safety, or working conditions, just makes it that much harder to operate in the US.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of technological turnover, just that we have a lot more available to us, but we're not getting happier as a result, because that's not what makes people happy.

 

[Michchamp]

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of technological turnover, just that we have a lot more available to us, but we're not getting happier as a result, because that's not what makes people happy.

ha.

don't people understand that Uber, Amazon, and air bnb have changed the paradigm, and therefore businesses shouldn't have to abide by OSHA or pay taxes anymore? GAH! such idiots... when are people going to wake up?

and look at Detroit... NAFTA allowed automakers to save capital by making cars in Mexico, freeing all those union autoworkers from their boring union jobs, but do they appreciate it? do they vote Republican? nooooooooo! ungrateful assholes.

 

[tomdalton22]

ha.

don't people understand that Uber, Amazon, and air bnb have changed the paradigm, and therefore businesses shouldn't have to abide by OSHA or pay taxes anymore? GAH! such idiots... when are people going to wake up?

and look at Detroit... NAFTA allowed automakers to save capital by making cars in Mexico, freeing all those union autoworkers from their boring union jobs, but do they appreciate it? do they vote Republican? nooooooooo! ungrateful assholes.

not just Mexico...but other states where they didn't have to pay the ridiculous union wages.

 

[Michchamp]

not just Mexico...but other states where they didn't have to pay the ridiculous union wages.

yeah, who cares what sort of horrible abuse, filth, and degradation workers in third world countries have to suffer from, and that consumers have to contend with lead, cadmium, arsenic, shoddy manufacturing, etc in their products as long as the CEO and upper management can make more money? they deserve it. office work is a lot harder than factory work.

 

[tomdalton22]

yeah, who cares what sort of horrible abuse, filth, and degradation workers in third world countries have to suffer from, and that consumers have to contend with lead, cadmium, arsenic, shoddy manufacturing, etc in their products as long as the CEO and upper management can make more money? they deserve it. office work is a lot harder than factory work.

I was talking about southern states. You know...where manufacturing went because UAW wages were too high. Those same states that manufacturers like Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Mercedes Benz, VW, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM all built plants....those southern states.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I was talking about southern states. You know...where manufacturing went because UAW wages were too high. Those same states that manufacturers like Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Mercedes Benz, VW, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM all built plants....those southern states.

Same shit there as with the post you were responding to.

 

[Thumb]

I was talking about southern states. You know...where manufacturing went because UAW wages were too high. Those same states that manufacturers like Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Mercedes Benz, VW, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM all built plants....those southern states.

False.

It's not because they were too high. Many companies still have several plants in those states (even a majority of their plants), the reason they went elsewhere was not because wages were too high, but simply because they could do it cheaper other places, either through lower wages or giant taxbreaks states and local governments offered for bringing in jobs.

The issue has never been about the amount of wages paid to the workers, but the amount of difference saved that ends up in the owners/stockholders pockets.