Tigers @ Royals 8-12-15 Game #114

[Rebbiv]

He is hitting .160 with a slugging % under .225 since his return from the DL. He's on the bench.

How does he get better or prove otherwise if he is on the bench?

 

[tomdalton22]

How does he get better or prove otherwise if he is on the bench?

this is a lost season. They know exactly what they have in Avila. I think they are giving McCann an audition for next year. This is better than trying to figure it out in spring training

 

[Mitchrapp]

this is a lost season. They know exactly what they have in Avila. I think they are giving McCann an audition for next year. This is better than trying to figure it out in spring training

They're giving mixed feelings then. Ausmus keeps on saying we still have a shot yet it's a lost season? I don't understand him..

 

[manchild98]

They're giving mixed feelings then. Ausmus keeps on saying we still have a shot yet it's a lost season? I don't understand him..

I think a manager always manages to win games. Brad has to know he's getting fired unless they make some crazy run. There's really no reason to ever give up on a season unless he has direction from above that says this guy needs to play everyday over this guy. I don't think that's happening in this case. He's just a mediocre/shitty manager...and he has no reliable pitching to count on either.

 

[Rebbiv]

I think a manager always manages to win games. Brad has to know he's getting fired unless they make some crazy run. There's really no reason to ever give up on a season unless he has direction from above that says this guy needs to play everyday over this guy. I don't think that's happening in this case. He's just a mediocre/shitty manager...and he has no reliable pitching to count on either.

The Tigers need to play their way into the Top 10 protected 1st round picks if this is the case.

If I was Avila, I would be pissed at the lack of playing time. My value comes from playing against RHP and showing I am a great defensive catcher going into Free Agency. By not playing me, Ausmus is affecting my worth.

Since the AS break, Avila has started 6 of 26 games at C and not in back to back games. He has started 8 of 26 games at 1B, and never in 3 games in a row.

During the recent 6 game home stand, he started 2 of those games and went 2 for 5, 3 walks and a double. He has only started/hit in 1 game since and that was 3 days between starts. Today would be 3 days between his last start.

This treatment of a veteran ballplayer almost guarantees he won't be back. I know, many of you are rejoicing. However, we are not going to win crap with McCann as the starting catcher. We have won with Avila, just not the World Series, but he wasn't the reason we didn't.

 

[tomdalton22]

The Tigers need to play their way into the Top 10 protected 1st round picks if this is the case.

If I was Avila, I would be pissed at the lack of playing time. My value comes from playing against RHP and showing I am a great defensive catcher going into Free Agency. By not playing me, Ausmus is affecting my worth.

Since the AS break, Avila has started 6 of 26 games at C and not in back to back games. He has started 8 of 26 games at 1B, and never in 3 games in a row.

During the recent 6 game home stand, he started 2 of those games and went 2 for 5, 3 walks and a double. He has only started/hit in 1 game since and that was 3 days between starts. Today would be 3 days between his last start.

This treatment of a veteran ballplayer almost guarantees he want be back. I know, many of you are rejoicing. However, we are not going to win crap with McCann as the starting catcher. We have won with Avila, just not the World Series, but he wasn't the reason we didn't.

I think other teams know exactly what Avila is at this point in his career. Going into the off season teams are going to look at him as a backup / platoon candidate but also keeping in mind his concussion history. I think the best thing for the Tigers is to see what they have in McCann vs. ML talent and see if he improves in his weak areas.

My guess...McCann will improve his game calling over time and the Tigers bring Alex back next year at a slightly reduced salary.

 

[Rebbiv]

I think other teams know exactly what Avila is at this point in his career. Going into the off season teams are going to look at him as a backup / platoon candidate but also keeping in mind his concussion history. I think the best thing for the Tigers is to see what they have in McCann vs. ML talent and see if he improves in his weak areas.

My guess...McCann will improve his game calling over time and the Tigers bring Alex back next year at a slightly reduced salary.

You don't treat Alex like what is currently happening and then ask him to return at a reduced salary. That is nuts. Talk about dysfunctional.

 

[tomdalton22]

You don't treat Alex like what is currently happening and then ask him to return at a reduced salary. That is nuts. Talk about dysfunctional.

I think you let the market decide what he should earn. I don't think any other team will give him $5M unless they want him to be their starter (then he would get more). As far as how he is being treated...offensively he has been bad this year. It's professional sports...you don't produce you sit the bench. He should know that.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think you let the market decide what he should earn. I don't think any other team will give him $5M unless they want him to be their starter (then he would get more). As far as how he is being treated...offensively he has been bad this year. It's professional sports...you don't produce you sit the bench. He should know that.

You'll be surprised at what other teams value.. Pitch calling is a big value plus he can take a walk. Hopefully he bats .240.

 

[Rebbiv]

I think you let the market decide what he should earn. I don't think any other team will give him $5M unless they want him to be their starter (then he would get more). As far as how he is being treated...offensively he has been bad this year. It's professional sports...you don't produce you sit the bench. He should know that.

Based on a small sample.

But you are right...we should probably should have sat Victor when he came back in 2013 and didn't hit well to start. Or maybe we should sit Victor now this year as well, seeings there is nothing to play for. Better yet, don't have Cabrera come back this year and sit Verlander. It's professional sports...they will understand.

 

[byco42]

I wonder is the nepotism angle is sharper still with Alex's dad as GM, which is why he's not behind the plate as much. Or at it. I count 15 PAs in August. Or maybe he's just not healthy enough to risk more balls bouncing of his (protected) skull.

 

[Rebbiv]

I wonder is the nepotism angle is sharper still with Alex's dad as GM, which is why he's not behind the plate as much. Or at it. I count 15 PAs in August. Or maybe he's just not healthy enough to risk more balls bouncing of his (protected) skull.

But he isn't getting the starts at 1B either. And he would certainly be a better option than Marte against RHP, now that they gave up on slug Krauss.

 

[gotime909]

Based on a small sample.

But you are right...we should probably should have sat Victor when he came back in 2013 and didn't hit well to start. Or maybe we should sit Victor now this year as well, seeings there is nothing to play for. Better yet, don't have Cabrera come back this year and sit Verlander. It's professional sports...they will understand.

If any of those other players got progressively worse at the plate for 5 years straight then yeah, they should have sat. I get defending Avila's D, but you're really reaching now.

 

[byco42]

But he isn't getting the starts at 1B either. And he would certainly be a better option than Marte against RHP, now that they gave up on slug Krauss.

The Krauss Era was too brief.

 

[Mitchrapp]

If any of those other players got progressively worse at the plate for 5 years straight then yeah, they should have sat. I get defending Avila's D, but you're really reaching now.

But the starts are going to someone who's hitting worse against RHP and doesn't call a good enough game. If we were "going for it" late into the trade deadline it makes no sense.

 

[Rebbiv]

If any of those other players got progressively worse at the plate for 5 years straight then yeah, they should have sat. I get defending Avila's D, but you're really reaching now.

Aside from 2011, his last 3 seasons are all within tolerance of each other.

wRC+

2011 = 140
2012 = 104
2013 = 91
2014 = 96

wOBA

2011 = .384
2012 = .327
2013 = .310
2014 = .311

WPA

2011 = 2.64
2012 = 0.90
2013 = 1.02
2014 = 1.09

Not sure how one could prove "progressively worse". And this year is incomplete with a small sample.

 

[tomdalton22]

Based on a small sample.

But you are right...we should probably should have sat Victor when he came back in 2013 and didn't hit well to start. Or maybe we should sit Victor now this year as well, seeings there is nothing to play for. Better yet, don't have Cabrera come back this year and sit Verlander. It's professional sports...they will understand.

you usually have good stats and arguments...but comparing Alex Avila to V-Mart, Miggy and even JV is pretty funny! 2 MVP's and V-Mart who has a career .303 avg and .839 OPS to Alex Avila!

BTW...I think you even suggested that JV should go to the pen (I could be wrong). That is a bigger slap in the face than benching Alex Avila who has never been anything special. If it wasn't you, don't take offense.

 

[kalinecountry]

I could be wrong, but it might have been sarcasm.

 

[Rebbiv]

I could be wrong, but it might have been sarcasm.

Bingo....

sarcasm doesn't play well on the internet for some reason.

But then again, everything on the internet is fact....Signed Abe Lincoln

 

[Rebbiv]

you usually have good stats and arguments...but comparing Alex Avila to V-Mart, Miggy and even JV is pretty funny! 2 MVP's and V-Mart who has a career .303 avg and .839 OPS to Alex Avila!

BTW...I think you even suggested that JV should go to the pen (I could be wrong). That is a bigger slap in the face than benching Alex Avila who has never been anything special. If it wasn't you, don't take offense.

Yes, it was me that suggested JV become the closer, not just going to pen. And it wouldn't be a slap in the face. And it would only be for this year and maybe next, for him to recover arm strength, but still pitch.


I can objectively show that prior to this year, and excluding 2011, Avila has been an above average MLB catcher, taking both defense and offense into consideration. But most people see the batting average and make their mind up just on that stat alone. Let's just say I am not surprised they or you do it.

The average games started by the World Series winning starting catcher over the last 15 years is 117 games started. And in the last 20 years, less than 20% of the MLB catchers have started more than 121 games (75%) in a season. Less than 5% have started more than 135 games.

Yes, Avila has had issues with concussions. Is this his fault? It has limited his time on the field, but how many games different are we really talking about. He averaged 106 Games Started from 2012-204. I think the most he gets is 121 in a good year. So he missed about 15 games a year on average.

Avila should be limited to starting against RHP. We all agree on that. We all hopefully agree that he is easily a top 10 defensive catcher (game galling/pitch framing, etc), maybe even top 5.

2012-2014 MLB Catchers versus RHP (32 qualify with 600 PA)

Avila t6th in OBP

Avila t9th in wRC+

Avila 10th in wOBA

Avila 12th in OPS

Avila 12th in ISO

Avila 19th in BAVG


Again, limited to starting against RH starters and given his defense, Avila is an above average MLB catcher, probably even a top 10. But there is still those that are going to say he sucks just by looking at his BAVG. Got it.