Tigers willing to let AJax "mature" @ leadoff

[turok]

[quote="Mitch":5wmtx4j2]Saying it right now, with the current roster we're winning 83 games and missing the playoffs.

The current roster is basically the same as last years, without the dead weight of Guillen, Ordonez, and Penny.

With the addition of Dotel, and possibly a 5th starter to come.

We have to be the clear favorite to win the Central, probably by 10 games.[/quote:5wmtx4j2]

Favorite, schmavorite, it "should" be World Series or bust now.

But IMO, as the team is set up right now on paper they lack the #2-3 LH SP, an at least above average leadoff hitter, either of a LH/SH 2B or 3B who is also above average on offense and defense, and at a minimum, a much better defensive late innings replacement OF, who can play RF/LF when needed, and who is at least adequate offensively, with some power.

Inge would be "tolerable" at 3rd IF it wasn't for the fact that Jackson ALSO was and likely will remain putrid @ the plate. It is like the Tigers are far more often than not, an NL team playing by their rules vs other AL teams, but instead with their freaking pitcher hitting leadoff (and the Tigers pitchers, of course, WILL be batting 9th as well when @ NL team, pre-ASB, next season). That isn't even taking into account the likely Sunday afternoon games, when LARD is also gonna be in the lineup. More than a third of the Tigers lineups with those three stooges at the plate is gonna make it VERY tough for the team to sustain any rallies, much less start them. Mix in some pre-ASB Shinebox @ 2B, a streaky, error-prone Young in LF, and Kelly in RF and the Tigers may often be unable to put up much of a fight, and no matter who their opponent is

I'd take a healthy Carlos Guillen, over anyone on their roster, that they plan on playing @ 2B next season.

Too bad he's so damned brittle, and can't do something to "fix" it, like the Brewers' Braun might have.

 

[mjsb2]

The current roster is basically the same as last years, without the dead weight of Guillen, Ordonez, and Penny.

With the addition of Dotel, and possibly a 5th starter to come.

We have to be the clear favorite to win the Central, probably by 10 games.

Favorite, schmavorite, it "should" be World Series or bust now.

But IMO, as the team is set up right now on paper they lack the #2-3 LH SP, an at least above average leadoff hitter, either of a LH/SH 2B or 3B who is also above average on offense and defense, and at a minimum, a much better defensive late innings replacement OF, who can play RF/LF when needed, and who is at least adequate offensively, with some power.

Inge would be "tolerable" at 3rd IF it wasn't for the fact that Jackson ALSO was and likely will remain putrid @ the plate. It is like the Tigers are far more often than not, an NL team playing by their rules vs other AL teams, but instead with their freaking pitcher hitting leadoff (and the Tigers pitchers, of course, WILL be batting 9th as well when @ NL team, pre-ASB, next season). That isn't even taking into account the likely Sunday afternoon games, when LARD is also gonna be in the lineup. More than a third of the Tigers lineups with those three stooges at the plate is gonna make it VERY tough for the team to sustain any rallies, much less start them. Mix in some pre-ASB Shinebox @ 2B, a streaky, error-prone Young in LF, and Kelly in RF and the Tigers may often be unable to put up much of a fight, and no matter who their opponent is

I'd take a healthy Carlos Guillen, over anyone on their roster, that they plan on playing @ 2B next season.

Too bad he's so damned brittle, and can't do something to "fix" it, like the Brewers' Braun might have.

That's that a necessity at all.

They have a two starter in Fister and a 3 starter in Scherzer.

 

[spockmaster]

i think we'll easily win the division but probably wont do well in the playoffs, we're too weak on defense and in a third of our lineup. we need to replace at least 2 of our weak points (inge/kelly, raburn/santiago, and young) on offense/defense to be a real contender. i think our rotation will be fine no matter who we get to be the 5th starter (aside from penny again or someone equally as bad) and the bullpen will be good as long as leyland uses it right (no righties for coke, no lefties for dotel).

 

[turok]

Yeah, you're right, the Tigers ballclub has not had even a halfway-decent veteran, fully seasoned rookie or physically healthy lefty in their rotation since 06, or ever since KR retired, and they have done pretty swell ever since, finally making it back to the postseason last year, so what was I thinking?

 

[Mitchrapp]

With the current roster we're still the best team in the division.

You never know. We could see a falloff with Peralta, Avila, Boesch. As much as I like Mart and he'll still do well but I see him falling off a bit. JV won't be as good, Fister was awesome when he pitched for us, he won't be as good. Valverde won't be as good. We hope AJ rebounds but I have my doubts. Then we still have crap at 2nd 3rd and left.

It comes down to the same as always, Scherzer and Porcello. If they can turn it around, but otherwise.

Granted, the rest of the division stinks but all it takes is one team to play above and beyond. I'm not normally this pessimistic but come on, add an INF or LF.

 

[mjsb2]

Yeah, you're right, the Tigers ballclub has not had even a halfway-decent veteran, fully seasoned rookie or physically healthy lefty in their rotation since 06, or ever since KR retired, and they have done pretty swell ever since, finally making it back to the postseason last year, so what was I thinking?

I'm not really sure.

 

[cmlfactor]

I don't see that the other teams have done much to improve themselves. It seems they've gotten worse, if anything. Sox lost Quentin and Buehrle. Twins lost Kubel and Cuddyer and Nathan. Indians are pretty much the same and the Royals are, well, the Royals. I don't see how we lose the division.

 

[Mitchrapp]

As Turok said above, at this point it should be WS or bust. Too many holes in the lineup to be considered WS contenders. Too many unproven steady pitchers, Scherzer & Porcello. We need to add not stay status quo.

 

[turok]

Winning the ALCD isn't all that much to brag about, since no less than 4 teams in the ALED and 2 in the ALWD could run away with it as well .

Even the Orioles and maybe even the A's might often finish around .500, if not a few games above.

Tigers finally broke their over a decade long division title-less streak last season, and their focus now should be centered on winning another AL pennant, if not winning the WS, and acquiring the few players necessary to improve on their chances of doing so, which may have taken a big hit with the offseason moves that the Angels and Rangers have made so far. The Yankees, Rays and Red Sox also have to be concerned about winning their division now, b/c the WC may be won by the Angels or the Rangers, and winning one of the two WC slots in the future means that losing just one "sudden death" postseason WC game results in being out of the running and going home.

That really sucks, especially if a WC team's "ace" can't pitch in that game, but their WC-winning opponent can and does.I will guess that MLB will change that eventually to perhaps a three-game postseason series, with the WC team having the best regular-season record hosting the first and last game.

 

[kalinecountry]

Winning the ALCD isn't all that much to brag about, since no less than 4 teams in the ALED and 2 in the ALWD could run away with it as well .

Even the Orioles and maybe even the A's might often finish around .500, if not a few games above.

Tigers finally broke their over a decade long division title-less streak last season, and their focus now should be centered on winning another AL pennant, if not winning the WS, and acquiring the few players necessary to improve on their chances of doing so, which may have taken a big hit with the offseason moves that the Angels and Rangers have made so far. The Yankees, Rays and Red Sox also have to be concerned about winning their division now, b/c the WC may be won by the Angels or the Rangers, and winning one of the two WC slots in the future means that losing just one "sudden death" postseason WC game results in being out of the running and going home.

That really sucks, especially if a WC team's "ace" can't pitch in that game, but their WC-winning opponent can and does.I will guess that MLB will change that eventually to perhaps a three-game postseason series, with the WC team having the best regular-season record hosting the first and last game.

Yeah, and I can't help but sense/get the feeling that they are happy or content just to be among or on the fringes of the best/better teams in the league and hope to get lucky in the playoffs. Tigers Two Beasts with JV and Cabrera and a few good players Peralta/Victor/Avila/Fister, who did have years we all can agree were better or little better than we expected, and the players who just stayed status quo with out taking the next step Scherzer/Porcello even Boesch and Raburn.
The other teams in the west all have loaded up on offense/starters and bullpen, at least 2 of the 3. Yankees and redsox have better offense,
With a similar offense we will probably have the same headache with players at the top of the order that won't get on base for MC and VMart as much as these other teams top 3 batters in their lineups. Throw up and in the weak platoons at 2nd and 3rd, a mediocre to average at best team defense, save for Jackson in CF, and my complaining is giving me an offseason headache.
What gives me hope is,
Maybe, they are waiting for the Cespedes drama to come to a conclusion, signing him or losing out, before making any later in the offseason moves through trade or FA. So as frustrating as it is for me, and from reading everyone elses thoughts, maybe the Tigers team that goes to Lakeland is still TBD.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think you might be right. First priority in DD thinking, win the division. But they did that, went to the WS a few years ago and beat the Yankees twice but now they need to win a WS.

 

[Mitchrapp]

And a lot of things have to go right for us to win 95 games again. Maybe they add a late off-season aquisition.

 

[turok]

KalineCountry[/color]]

Yeah, and I can't help but sense/get the feeling that they are happy or content just to be among or on the fringes of the best/better teams in the league and hope to get lucky in the playoffs. Tigers Two Beasts with JV and Cabrera and a few good players Peralta/Victor/Avila/Fister, who did have years we all can agree were better or little better than we expected, and the players who just stayed status quo with out taking the next step Scherzer/Porcello even Boesch and Raburn.
The other teams in the west all have loaded up on offense/starters and bullpen, at least 2 of the 3. Yankees and redsox have better offense,
With a similar offense we will probably have the same headache with players at the top of the order that won't get on base for MC and VMart as much as these other teams top 3 batters in their lineups. Throw up and in the weak platoons at 2nd and 3rd, a mediocre to average at best team defense, save for Jackson in CF, and my complaining is giving me an offseason headache.
What gives me hope is,
Maybe, they are waiting for the Cespedes drama to come to a conclusion, signing him or losing out, before making any later in the offseason moves through trade or FA. So as frustrating as it is for me, and from reading everyone elses thoughts, maybe the Tigers team that goes to Lakeland is still TBD.

The Tigers also have little if any depth anywhere on the field, or on their rotation, obviously, and can ill-afford to have any players on the DL. I have nightmares of Avila getting banged up and going on the 15 or gawd-forbid, the (((shudder))) 60 day DL....yikes!!

You are correct that the Tigers may be waiting for the Cespedes situation to be settled,and they also may have the mindset to go into the '12 season as is, and based upon the performances of certain players @ certain positions in the field and lineup, making a couple of moves prior to the trade deadline during next season,

The problem is and will likely remain, is that the Tigers do not have very much that they can afford to part with, and very few who they could really afford to lose that would be very desirable as bait in any potential trades...oh well.

 

[jimrice]

I think it's important to improve, if you are building towards a championship.

Starters -

Not sure who replaces the #5 Penny, but unlikely to be a worse pitcher.
A full year of Fister replaces half a year of Coke/Fister.

Advantage 2012

Pen-

Coke for a full year in the situational lefty role, replacing Thomas? maybe.
Dotel for Perry.

Advantage 2012

Hitters -

Young for a full term it appears.
Raburn/Ramon at 2nd to start the year.
Inge/Kelly at third all year.

Neutral at best, possible downgrade in left.


Personally, I'd like to see an upgrade at 2nd, 3rd or Left, in that order before I'm ready to believe in 2012. The good news is that there is still plenty of time and DD is not an idiot.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think it's important to improve, if you are building towards a championship.

Starters -

Not sure who replaces the #5 Penny, but unlikely to be a worse pitcher.
A full year of Fister replaces half a year of Coke/Fister.

Advantage 2012

Pen-

Coke for a full year in the situational lefty role, replacing Thomas? maybe.
Dotel for Perry.

Advantage 2012

Hitters -

Young for a full term it appears.
Raburn/Ramon at 2nd to start the year.
Inge/Kelly at third all year.

Neutral at best, possible downgrade in left.


Personally, I'd like to see an upgrade at 2nd, 3rd or Left, in that order before I'm ready to believe in 2012. The good news is that there is still plenty of time and DD is not an idiot.

And you notice we didn't win a pennant. That's the point. What are we all okay with.

 

[Thumb]

Mitch[/color]]As Turok said above, at this point it should be WS or bust. Too many holes in the lineup to be considered WS contenders. Too many unproven steady pitchers, Scherzer & Porcello. We need to add not stay status quo.

I get that we should have improved more, but you said we would win 83 games and miss the playoffs with the current roster, and that's why I posted that we are the clear favorite to win the division (playoff spot) and probably improved on last years team.

Maybe not 95 wins, but I don't see 90 as a stretch.

And like someone said, DD can still pull off a big move.

 

[Thumb]

Mitch[/color]]

I think it's important to improve, if you are building towards a championship.

Starters -

Not sure who replaces the #5 Penny, but unlikely to be a worse pitcher.
A full year of Fister replaces half a year of Coke/Fister.

Advantage 2012

Pen-

Coke for a full year in the situational lefty role, replacing Thomas? maybe.
Dotel for Perry.

Advantage 2012

Hitters -

Young for a full term it appears.
Raburn/Ramon at 2nd to start the year.
Inge/Kelly at third all year.

Neutral at best, possible downgrade in left.


Personally, I'd like to see an upgrade at 2nd, 3rd or Left, in that order before I'm ready to believe in 2012. The good news is that there is still plenty of time and DD is not an idiot.

And you notice we didn't win a pennant. That's the point. What are we all okay with.

We didn't win a pennant, but we came pretty damn close, you're splitting hairs Mitch.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Why didn't we win? Partly because our offense was not very good. We lost to Texas, by scoring 2, 2, 3 and 5. Too many holes.

 

[Thumb]

Mitch[/color]]Why didn't we win? Partly because our offense was not very good. We lost to Texas, by scoring 2, 2, 3 and 5. Too many holes.

True, but the team with the best offense is not guaranteed a win in the playoffs, ask the Yankees.

We came within a few innings of the World Series, i look at that as a positive, not a negative.

 

[jimrice]

[quote author=mitchrapp board=tigertalk thread=4471 post=110299 time=1325804758]Why didn't we win? Partly because our offense was not very good. We lost to Texas, by scoring 2, 2, 3 and 5. Too many holes. [/quote

Texas had very good pitching.

With Ogando, Adams and Feliz, that bullpen was tough.

The Tigers were 4rth in runs last year, which is pretty competitive. The Tigers were well above average offensively.