Today's example of Christians behaving badly

[Michchamp]

You have no idea. When I was maybe 6 or 7 years old, my Grandmother told me that Satan was once a beautiful Angel and that he may come to me and pretend to be God. She said that I couldn't trust that it was truly God, so the test is to pinch yourself. If it hurts, it's Satan. If it doesn't hurt, it's God. She also claimed that Satan will try to get into bed with me to sneak into my dreams, so if I had nightmares, it was because I was letting Satan win and my soul was doomed to Hell. But she said, "Don't worry! When you wake up, pray to God for your soul. Beg forgiveness for your sins and let Jesus into your heart."

For a few years, that was the final thought that went through my mind before bed time. Scary shit when you're that young.

We plan to take a live and let live approach with our kids. Not push them into any religion, but also not to see us badmouthing relatives - or otherwise decent people - who believe. But If I found out my parents or in-laws tried to fill my kid's head with that nonsense, I'm going after them.

 

[Monster]

We plan to take a live and let live approach with our kids. Not push them into any religion, but also not to see us badmouthing relatives - or otherwise decent people - who believe. But If I found out my parents or in-laws tried to fill my kid's head with that nonsense, I'm going after them.

The exact approach we are taking with our son. We'll answer any questions he has, but we're going to let him grow up and educate himself before anybody actually talks to him. His mom is a non practicing liberal catholic and I'm an atheist, so we just want him to have some kind of worldly knowledge before he comes to his own conclusions.

Edit: my father in law has actually banned us from his house until my son is baptized and promised that he would baptize him if we let gavin go to his house for the summer. We haven't talked to him, my mother in law, or their 12 year old son since then. Kind of sad. He even offered us money to baptize him and called us child abusers for not doing it lol

 

[turok]

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Edit: my father in law has actually banned us from his house until my son is baptized and promised that he would baptize him if we let gavin go to his house for the summer. We haven't talked to him, my mother in law, or their 12 year old son since then. Kind of sad. He even offered us money to baptize him and called us child abusers for not doing it lol

Reminds me of an episode in the old 70s sitcom All In The Family, when Archie Bunker snuck off with his baby grandchild to a church to have him baptized behind his daughter Gloria and SIL Mike's backs and w/o their consent. When they soon found out what he did, they were absolutely furious, of course, and a verbal battle-royale ensued.

Back when that sitcom aired in primetime, I rarely watched TV b/c I was almost always never home until very late. But my wife enjoys watching those ancient 70s reruns now, so I watch them with her sometimes.

 

[Monster]

Reminds me of an episode in the old 70s sitcom All In The Family, when Archie Bunker snuck off with his baby grandchild to a church to have him baptized behind his daughter Gloria and SIL Mike's backs and w/o their consent. When they soon found out what he did, they were absolutely furious, of course, and a verbal battle-royale ensued.

Back when that sitcom aired in primetime, I rarely watched TV b/c I was almost always never home until very late. But my wife enjoys watching those ancient 70s reruns now, so I watch them with her sometimes.

haha, im not old enough to remember that, but it's similar. The problem with giving into this guy is that's what he does. I was unmarried when we had our son and he wouldn't allow me at the house until we were married. If we give in, he'd just find something else to hold over our heads. The 12 year old son and my son are more like brothers than uncle and nephew, so it's really sad. The father in law is a retired correctional officer and has a history of spousal abuse, so the mom is too terrified to stand up to him, so we won't be seeing her or her son for a very long time.

And people wonder why I've started resenting religion.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Actually as I recall Archie did the baptism all by himself alone in the church.

So I don't know how much that counts or doesn't count.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Actually as I recall Archie did the baptism all by himself alone in the church.

So I don't know how much that counts or doesn't count.

Here we go.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cp9hZwWZA

 

[Michchamp]

my wife wanted to baptize our son and have formal god-parents, so I conceded since it's not like it means anything... we haven't been back to the church since, and it was free.

The priest was nice; even set up a video camera & streamed it so religious nutjobs in our family could view it over the web. They were treated to 20 minutes of my son screaming his head off, while a priest mumbled things in English and Ukrainian and put water and oil on his head, and gave him a thimble of wine. The thimble of wine was the only thing that quieted him down (for about 5 seconds).

yay christianity.

also, my brother and I lied and told him we were practicing Catholics just to speed things along. I'm not going to debate the existence of god with a guy offering to perform a free baptism. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Here we go.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cp9hZwWZA

If anybody cares enough here's the full episode.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JuEhkGyXv08

The raucous really happens before the baptism.

Funny funny stuff.

Classic.

 

[Michchamp]

haha, im not old enough to remember that, but it's similar. The problem with giving into this guy is that's what he does. I was unmarried when we had our son and he wouldn't allow me at the house until we were married. If we give in, he'd just find something else to hold over our heads. The 12 year old son and my son are more like brothers than uncle and nephew, so it's really sad. The father in law is a retired correctional officer and has a history of spousal abuse, so the mom is too terrified to stand up to him, so we won't be seeing her or her son for a very long time.

And people wonder why I've started resenting religion.

why you've started resenting religion?

getting banned from this guy's house (and in-laws in general) sounds like a blessing in disguise.

the christian god has blessed you, is what I mean to say.

 

[grandy]

Monster, if you're really open-minded, perhaps you should perform the Okipa ceremony for your son.

After all, don't you want your son to gain the approval of the spirits and everlasting fame among the Mandans?

The Okipa began with the young men not eating, drinking, or sleeping for four days. Then they were led to a hut, where they had to sit with smiling faces while the skin of their chest and shoulders was slit and wooden skewers were thrust behind the muscles. Using the skewers to support the weight of their bodies, the warriors would be suspended from the roof of the lodge and would hang there until they fainted. To add agony, heavy weights were added to the initiates' legs. After fainting, the warriors would be pulled down and the men (women were not allowed to attend this ceremony) would watch them until they awoke, proving the spirits' approval. Upon awakening, the warriors would offer the left little finger to the Great Spirit, whereupon a masked tribesman would sever it with a hatchet blow. Finally, participants would endure a grueling race around the village called "the last race" with weights and skewers still in place, to determine who among them was the strongest.

Those finishing the ceremony were seen as being honored by the spirits; those completing the ceremony twice would gain everlasting fame among the tribe.​

 

[tinselwolverine]

also, my brother and I lied and told him we were practicing Catholics just to speed things along. I'm not going to debate the existence of god with a guy offering to perform a free baptism. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Aren't you afraid you're going to go to hell for this?

At the church around the corner from me baptisms are free when the parents are God fearing Christians.

If one or more is an admitted atheist, $50.

 

[turok]

why you've started resenting religion?

I started resenting religion when I first learned about pedo-priests, b/c I was born and raised Roman-Catholic, even though I haven't been actively practicing it since I was a young teen.

It just increased dramatically when many Republicans began parroting, dog-whistling, and patronizing the views of the militant fundie extremists, alluding to this being a Christian nation, taking "their" country back (Theocracy), verbally rewriting US history, condemning everyone who does not share their beliefs, implementing their version of Christian "Sharia" law, and trying to turn the "war against terrorism" into a US Crusade against ALL Muslims, even those who are US citizens.

I don't know how many of the 60M who voted for Mittens (who is a Moron..err..Mormon) are of their ilk, nor how many Chrisofascists in total that there are in the US, but many certainly get out & vote, and know how to grab the spotlight. It seems that only Mormons and Jews are spared their venom, but @ least some of the former are polygamists, which is not exactly being virtuous to them.

 

[Monster]

why you've started resenting religion?

getting banned from this guy's house (and in-laws in general) sounds like a blessing in disguise.

the christian god has blessed you, is what I mean to say.

I've only been an Atheist for about four years and, at first, my motto was "leave them alone unless they come after me", but the last couple years I've been much more anti-religion. It's hard not to get angry when all of these things happen in the world.

As for just giving in and baptizing, I was once okay with that. However, if we do that, then he would demand my son to go to church every week, attend catholic classes, get confirmed, and all that stuff. If it were just a simple act of water on the head and end of story, I might be persuaded. That's not the case.

 

[Monster]

Monster, if you're really open-minded, perhaps you should perform the Okipa ceremony for your son.

After all, don't you want your son to gain the approval of the spirits and everlasting fame among the Mandans?

The Okipa began with the young men not eating, drinking, or sleeping for four days. Then they were led to a hut, where they had to sit with smiling faces while the skin of their chest and shoulders was slit and wooden skewers were thrust behind the muscles. Using the skewers to support the weight of their bodies, the warriors would be suspended from the roof of the lodge and would hang there until they fainted. To add agony, heavy weights were added to the initiates' legs. After fainting, the warriors would be pulled down and the men (women were not allowed to attend this ceremony) would watch them until they awoke, proving the spirits' approval. Upon awakening, the warriors would offer the left little finger to the Great Spirit, whereupon a masked tribesman would sever it with a hatchet blow. Finally, participants would endure a grueling race around the village called "the last race" with weights and skewers still in place, to determine who among them was the strongest.

Those finishing the ceremony were seen as being honored by the spirits; those completing the ceremony twice would gain everlasting fame among the tribe.​

lol my father in law might have a heart attack. Let's do it!

 

[KAWDUP]

haha, im not old enough to remember that, but it's similar. The problem with giving into this guy is that's what he does. I was unmarried when we had our son and he wouldn't allow me at the house until we were married. If we give in, he'd just find something else to hold over our heads. The 12 year old son and my son are more like brothers than uncle and nephew, so it's really sad. The father in law is a retired correctional officer and has a history of spousal abuse, so the mom is too terrified to stand up to him, so we won't be seeing her or her son for a very long time.

And people wonder why I've started resenting religion.

Why resent religion, and not your Father-in-Law instead. Doesn't sound to me like he is a very good Christian, so why would you blame Christianity?

BTW - the reason for the aggressive baptizers is that according to dogma, a child's soul still retains original sin until they are baptized, and therefore cannot get into the Kingdom of Heaven if something were to happen to them.

I actually don't see the problem with it - the kid is oblivious, and if you don't believe, the action involved is that you are just pouring a little "blessed water" on their forehead, so no harm will come to them. It is really just everyone's preconceived notions about it that get in the way.

Seems a shame to lose one's relatives over something so trivial to a non-believer. Almost always other reasons for the animosity. Anyway, that is my 2 cents.

 

[Michchamp]

Why resent religion, and not your Father-in-Law instead. Doesn't sound to me like he is a very good Christian, so why would you blame Christianity?
...

Oh come on now... there are plenty of other reasons to blame Christianity. This is obviously not the only reason he's renounced it.

the same line is used for pedo-priests, all the way up to some of the awful things the Vatican has done throughout history... "boo hoo. don't diss religion, it's just one or two bad apples."

But there are more than enough ties to condemn the whole damn structure though, in addition to its deities. for every Archbishop Romero who has stood with his flock against poverty & oppression, there are many more that stood with the oppressors, or were actively involved in actively oppressing them.

 

[Michchamp]

I've only been an Atheist for about four years ...

you just reminded me I've been one for 10 years as of sometime this spring/summer. I should have a party.

I remember telling myself one day "Ok, so I am an atheist." there wasn't any sort of ceremony or bolt of lightening though, so I don't remember the exact date, only that I was 25, so it was sometime in 2005.

there's this French restaurant near us that has an amazing but pretty reasonably priced brunch menu & on Sundays a $10 unlimited bloody mary bar. I think I'll have my 10 year atheist brunch there.

 

[KAWDUP]

Oh come on now... there are plenty of other reasons to blame Christianity. This is obviously not the only reason he's renounced it.

the same line is used for pedo-priests, all the way up to some of the awful things the Vatican has done throughout history... "boo hoo. don't diss religion, it's just one or two bad apples."

But there are more than enough ties to condemn the whole damn structure though, in addition to its deities. for every Archbishop Romero who has stood with his flock against poverty & oppression, there are many more that stood with the oppressors, or were actively involved in actively oppressing them.

You're a dickhead, but I don't condemn atheism just because of that.

Damn, it is a fucking miracle so many still believe after all your posturing. I wonder why that might be?!? Oh, right, nearly a billion people are just stupid fucking idiots in your simpleton mind.

 

[Monster]

Why resent religion, and not your Father-in-Law instead. Doesn't sound to me like he is a very good Christian, so why would you blame Christianity?

BTW - the reason for the aggressive baptizers is that according to dogma, a child's soul still retains original sin until they are baptized, and therefore cannot get into the Kingdom of Heaven if something were to happen to them.

I actually don't see the problem with it - the kid is oblivious, and if you don't believe, the action involved is that you are just pouring a little "blessed water" on their forehead, so no harm will come to them. It is really just everyone's preconceived notions about it that get in the way.

Seems a shame to lose one's relatives over something so trivial to a non-believer. Almost always other reasons for the animosity. Anyway, that is my 2 cents.

That's not the reason I've begun to resent religion. Well, it's not the only reason. I see religion being used as a means to discriminate, to hate and bully, creating laws that are solely based on religion and nothing else. And that's just here in our country. edit: And I realize that it isn't all of christianity, but that is what's going on here.

As for my son being oblivious, that's not true at all. If you truly believe this, you would have no problem with one of your children at 8 years old being taken into Islam and taught the Quran. You'd have no problem with them spending time with me so I can teach them how everything YOU believe is wrong. I mean, they're oblivious, right? No. I would rather my son continue to grow and learn when he's truly ready. At 8 years old, this is when I started going to bible study and camp and church on sundays. I had no worldly knowledge and I sure as heck believed everything the adults said.

Besides, if we were to give into him, he would just hold something over our heads again in the future. Maybe he decides that he doesn't like the home or neighborhood we've chosen. Perhaps he won't like that we have him in public school and wants him in a private catholic schoool....it doesn't end. If we don't put our foot down now, this is just going to keep happening.

It's not just a little bit of blessed water. There is much more involved. I don't give a fuck if he wants to believe when he's older, but it's going to be his own decision, not something that people push onto him. I can not fathom why anyone would lay blame at my feet when I'm the good guy in this scenario.

Edit: I get what you say about baptism. I was Christian for a long time and I understand its purpose. I just refuse to believe that any god would sentence a child to Hell. That's insane and if your god is that type of god, I suggest you examine the morality of that a bit closer. My wife is Catholic and even she doesn't believe that shit.

Thanks for the input. Seriously, it's good to hear someone else talk about this.

 

[KAWDUP]

As for my son being oblivious, that's not true at all. If you truly believe this, you would have no problem with one of your children at 8 years old being taken into Islam and taught the Quran. You'd have no problem with them spending time with me so I can teach them how everything YOU believe is wrong. I mean, they're oblivious, right?

You are comparing pouring a little water over child's head to teaching them the Quran? LOL - how silly.

Man are you jaded - again this is the fault of the Father-in-Law. You're afraid of what this means down the road, and all of the bullshit that you perceive will come after, but that isn't baptism's fault or Christianity. Your decision of course, but your comparison is just stupid.