Ukraine Riots

[Thumb]

A previous US NATO rep was on air saying it's not about Crimea for Putin. He wants Ukraine. Crimea wouldn't cut it. Don't know much about how reasonable/knowledgeable that guy is though.

I don't think it's so much that Putin wants Ukraine, as he does not want anyone else to have it, like the EU or NATO.

He's still very much a product of the USSR, and that once massive empire is getting smaller and less significant all the time. Look how many old republics/eastern bloc nations have already sided with his former nemesis [US-Nato], Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Croatia.

I can't imagine he would be at all happy with any more of his close alliances slipping from his grasp.

 

[spockmaster]

Exactly. The Cold War may be over, but Putin doesn't think (or doesn't want to think) it is.

 

[food4thought]

Thanks for the response MichChamp.

Yeah, judging from your map the whole idea of a ballot to determine who would want to split from Ukraine doesn't look like it would work outside Crimea... and maybe some slim gains along the border in places, but not enough of a gain to really entice Putin to pull out his troops. Plus there is too much of a possibility that some of the inner disconnected regions would split. ~sigh~ It sounded so good though.

 

[Michchamp]

Thanks for the response MichChamp.

Yeah, judging from your map the whole idea of a ballot to determine who would want to split from Ukraine doesn't look like it would work outside Crimea... and maybe some slim gains along the border in places, but not enough of a gain to really entice Putin to pull out his troops. Plus there is too much of a possibility that some of the inner disconnected regions would split. ~sigh~ It sounded so good though.

the inner regions of Russian speakers on the map are the cities. my in-laws live in one of those. My father-in-law is actually ethnic Russian, but was born and raised in Ukraine, and if he's representative of anything, those cities have no interest in joining Russia (he claimed he will enlist in the Ukrainian army if Russia invades.)

 

[zyxt9]

the Baltics are all NATO members. Belarus has been ruled by a pro-Russian puppet (Lukashenka) for almost its entire post-Soviet history, though according to my wife protests are *just* beginning there as well.

my bad, i had tried google to see if belarus was a nato member and thought it said they are. regardless, if their leader is a putin puppet then all the more reason to look out for a flanking run through there.

 

[zyxt9]

Putin: "Russia has the right 'to take all measures"

damn, thats where W went wrong. instead of WMDs he just needed to say the US needed to invade and kill Iraqis in order to protect the Americans there and that right means the US could "take all measures".

i guess Putin will be aiming to take over the Russian areas of Brooklyn next...

 

[jwlcosu]

get real. Romney had no idea this would happen, nor would he have done shit about it prior to now.

Whether Romney had an idea this would happen is not the point. The point is that after five years in office, 0bama is neither respected nor feared by other world leaders. A US President needs to be one or the other. He is nothing, His administration is nothing. His impotent Secretary of State was spewing not two weeks ago that freaking climate change is "the greatest threat the planet has ever seen!". C'mon man!

Crimea is gone and it's not coming back unless and until the Russian strongman decides there is benefit to be had by giving it back. Will he go further? Who knows? If he does, it will be because Putin, like pretty much any head of state you can name, neither respects nor fears our elected President. And that's the way it's going to be throughout the second term.

 

[Thumb]

Whether Romney had an idea this would happen is not the point. The point is that after five years in office, 0bama is neither respected nor feared by other world leaders. A US President needs to be one or the other. He is nothing, His administration is nothing. His impotent Secretary of State was spewing not two weeks ago that freaking climate change is "the greatest threat the planet has ever seen!". C'mon man!

Crimea is gone and it's not coming back unless and until the Russian strongman decides there is benefit to be had by giving it back. Will he go further? Who knows? If he does, it will be because Putin, like pretty much any head of state you can name, neither respects nor fears our elected President. And that's the way it's going to be throughout the second term.

LOL STFU.

Obama needs to be respected or feared....you're such a 'tard. How respected was Bush? Not very when so many others wanted him tried at the Hague for war crimes. And feared? Yeah Saddam backed right down from Bush didn't he? And Kim Jong Il and the Ayatollah too.

Keep talking stupid shit that's not on point just so you can try to get your lame ass right-wing propaganda going. You think Putin gives a fuck who the US president is and it would change what he's currently doing?, if you do you're dumber than I thought. Which is a frightening idea.

 

[Michchamp]

President Charles Manson would be respected and feared by Putin... but is that really the type of guy we want as president?

 

[Michchamp]

not sure what exactly Obama could have realistically done to prevent the occupation of Crimea, but my brain wasn't created to exist in Fox News land so maybe I just dont have enough of an imagination

 

[Gulo Blue]

0bama is neither respected nor feared by other world leaders.

Is that a typo, or do you spell Obama with a zero on purpose?

 

[Michchamp]

here are the insights that being able to see Russia from your house gets you:

"Palin led off by taking credit for ?predicting? Putin?s move way back in 2008, a dubious assertion that?s quickly becoming objective truth among the right. Asked by Hannity to explain what President Obama ?refused? to see, Palin asserted that 'anyone who carries the common sense gene would know that Putin doesn?t change his stripes.'"
...
?Are you concerned that this goes further, that [Putin's] ambitions are much bigger than even the Crimean area?? Hannity asked.


?Well, yes, especially under the Commander-in-Chief we have today,? Palin responded, ?because Obama?s ? the perception of him and his potency across the world is one of such weakness.?
...
?Look it, people are looking at Putin as one who wrestles bears and drills for oil,? Palin explained. ?They look at our president as one who wears mom jeans and equivocates and bloviates. We are not exercising that peace through strength that only can be brought to you courtesy of the red, white and blue, that only a strengthened United States military can do.?
​

shows a truly deep understanding of the situation, no? If only we'd invaded Ukraine first, I guess, we'd be viewed as liberators, and no one would've complained. Certainly this unilateral action, and any casualties we caused would not sway EU, Ukrainian and world opinion against us.

nor would the massive troop & naval build up and maneuver into Ukraine possibly spark Russia to invade first, if not spark WWIII. it would just kinda happen. Risking a World War, with at least tens of millions of deaths... that's just not something our President needs to worry about.

And there are no logistical problems with supplying an army on Russia's doorstep that's big enough to deter Russian action, not to mention the cost to the treasury. it's kinda like a GI Joe cartoon... they just go where they need to and fight. It's NOT COMPLICATED. Rations? ammunition? gasoline? oil? spare parts? bases? over-stretched supply lines requiring permission to travel over several national borders and territorial waters between the U.S. and Ukraine...??? all trivial matters that should not factor in to the decision to put boots on the ground in your enemy's backyard.

It's sad that there are enough people as stupid as jdilco to continue to justify Fox News' existence.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If only we'd invaded Ukraine first, I guess, we'd be viewed as liberators, and no one would've complained. Certainly this unilateral action, and any casualties we caused would not sway EU, Ukrainian and world opinion against us.

That's not what she's saying. She's saying Putin would change his stripes (don't expect consistency) if Obama wrestled a bear. Preferably a brown bear from Russia, but an Asiatic black bear would do.

This is the Obama we need:

 

[Gulo Blue]

EU was expected t ooffer $1 or 2B. They're offering $15B in grants and loans to help get the Ukrainian economy running.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/05/eu-ukraine-support-idUSL6N0M227R20140305

 

[Gulo Blue]

USS George H. W. Bush to the Black Sea. So much for my "easier to back away theories". Source is RT and they're just saying Turkey gave permission...so we'll see if it actually happens, but with the $15B from the EU and this, it looks like we're going with a stronger than anticipated reaction.

http://rt.com/news/us-warship-black..._medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

 

[Michchamp]

USS George H. W. Bush to the Black Sea. So much for my "easier to back away theories". Source is RT and they're just saying Turkey gave permission...so we'll see if it actually happens, but with the $15B from the EU and this, it looks like we're going with a stronger than anticipated reaction.

http://rt.com/news/us-warship-black..._medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

Assuming that is true (it is, as you point out, from RT) I assume there's more to come. we wouldn't send an aircraft carrier alone into the Black Sea. and the lone other ship there (a guided-missile frigate) is not enough for escort duty in the face of the Russian Black Sea fleet, which is probably mostly rusty garbage anyway, but still dangerous.

some of the navy guys who post here would know better than I would, but our carriers are used in carrier groups, with a number of destroyers, frigates, and subs as escorts, along with supply ships... unless of course, they're going to rely on the Turkish navy for that, though that's probably not likely.

 

[Michchamp]

I've seen a couple articles about how allegedly the snipers in Kyiv shooting people (both protestors and police) were actually agent provocateurs hired by the Ukrainian opposition politicians. Supposedly it's a call between some Estonian official and some other national official.

While Ukraine's interim leaders aren't saints themselves, this seems implausible for a number of reasons. For one thing, I've only seen it reported on pro-Russian or incredibly nutty sites like ZeroHedge. For another... WHAT? sniper attacks were going on for a while while the police were still out there in control of the situation. seems implausible that snipers could be operating independent of police without someone figuring out who they were. Also, there were undoubtedly Russian agents operating in Kyiv throughout this crisis. It's strange they only figure this out now, via a telephone intercept, when they've lost control of public opinion.

edit: Estonia denies it. RT reports Estonia confirms it. currently google shows both articles on the same results page. RT needs to keep up better... https://www.google.com/#q=ukraine+news+estonia

 

[Thumb]

Assuming that is true (it is, as you point out, from RT) I assume there's more to come. we wouldn't send an aircraft carrier alone into the Black Sea. and the lone other ship there (a guided-missile frigate) is not enough for escort duty in the face of the Russian Black Sea fleet, which is probably mostly rusty garbage anyway, but still dangerous.

some of the navy guys who post here would know better than I would, but our carriers are used in carrier groups, with a number of destroyers, frigates, and subs as escorts, along with supply ships... unless of course, they're going to rely on the Turkish navy for that, though that's probably not likely.

Yeah it wont just be the Carrier, it will be the Carrier strike group, which consists of support and defense ships plus like a couple hunter/attack subs. A carrier never goes alone.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Is there actually a head of Ukraine government that the United States officially at this moment in time recognizes as head of Ukraine government?

 

[Michchamp]

Is there actually a head of Ukraine government that the United States officially at this moment in time recognizes as head of Ukraine government?

yes, his title is acting president:
Oleksandr Turchynov