Ukraine

[biggunsbob]

you think that kind of crap doesn't happen here?

Sadly it does. but I?d still rather live here and or in Ukraine over Russia and so would you if you had a choice.

 

[Michchamp]

LOL, first it was reported the Koch Brothers would continue to do business in Russia, and now three other major US oilfield services companies said the same.

"This isn't our war, so fuck off. we're busy making money."

 

[tinselwolverine]

Sadly it does. but I?d still rather live here and or in Ukraine over Russia and so would you if you had a choice.

Once again, the United States is the worst country ever, except for every other one.

It isn?t even close.

 

[tigermud]

have to say that's kinda funny, good ol' corruption will be his downfall?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-russian-spies-scouted-ukraine-house-arrest-kgb

Two members of the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, who were supposed to have prepped the ground for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, are reportedly under house arrest. Colonel-General Sergei Beseda and his deputy apparently dropped the ball. Or are being blamed for an operation that by most accounts is bogged down.

Questions are likely being asked. "Why didn't Ukrainains welcome Russian soldiers? Where did the money earmarked for that operation go? Was it unwisely spent or stolen by those in charge of it?" There were no crowds greeting the invading force with flowers, as some in Russia had anticipated.

 

[tigermud]

https://youtu.be/gOmYi96cU1M

 

[Gulo Blue]

Sadly it does. but I?d still rather live here and or in Ukraine over Russia and so would you if you had a choice.

Democracies, even badly flawed ones, are better than autocracies, even the best ones.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm astonished you believe this.

Why?

 

[Michchamp]

Why?

I didn't think any reasonably objective American adult could still, in 2022, think NATO is some open club other nations can join if they want, and doesn't come with really thick strings attached, all of which are pulled by our government.



unless for some reason since 2001 you've been getting your news exclusively from Time magazine or something like that?

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm still kind of surprised to read this. When nations join NATO, they don't become puppets of an American regime. If you want to leave NATO, you have to give a 1-year notice, and then you're out. That's it. Appease us? It's not remotely the same. NATO is not the problem. Authoritarianism is.

Countries don?t leave NATO.

Ever.

It would be like a fetus choosing to be born.

 

[Michchamp]

Countries don?t leave NATO.

Ever.

It would be like a fetus choosing to be born.

apparently France did once.

 

[Spartanmack]

I didn't think any reasonably objective American adult could still, in 2022, think NATO is some open club other nations can join if they want, and doesn't come with really thick strings attached, all of which are pulled by our government.



unless for some reason since 2001 you've been getting your news exclusively from Time magazine or something like that?

Isn't it awful that countries expect some responsibility and accountability from other countries when forming alliances with them? Why can't Ukraine or anyone else joining NATO be like an ungrateful teenager and freeload off of everyone else?

 

[tinselwolverine]

Countries don?t leave NATO.

Ever.

It would be like a fetus choosing to be born.

I double checked before I made the post. France is on a list of countries that have contemplated leaving NATO, Germany was on that list, and actually of course the United States was on that list.

Nobody has left yet.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I didn't think any reasonably objective American adult could still, in 2022, think NATO is some open club other nations can join if they want, and doesn't come with really thick strings attached, all of which are pulled by our government.



unless for some reason since 2001 you've been getting your news exclusively from Time magazine or something like that?

Well, I don't think it's an open club anyone can just join, but if the US was pulling the strings, everyone else would have been spending as much on their militaries as they kept saying they would and are now again saying they will.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Countries don?t leave NATO.

Ever.

It would be like a fetus choosing to be born.

But nothing is stopping them if they wanted to because of all the strings we're allegedly pulling.

 

[tinselwolverine]

But nothing is stopping them if they wanted to because of all the strings we're allegedly pulling.

I don?t know what strings we?re pulling. The last POTUS wanted NATO members that weren?t the USA to pony up a little more loot and I guess that happened. Maybe that?s why NATO seems more united in all this - they have more skin in the game.

 

[Michchamp]

But nothing is stopping them if they wanted to because of all the strings we're allegedly pulling.

It's apparently enough of a big deal that both former state dept. officials and CIA officers warned Congress that expanding it to the East was a bad idea for a variety of reasons, and bad for our own interests (I wrote about it in this thread, and included direct quotes).

if it was just like a little social club for the US and white nations in Europe, I doubt very much the Russians would care or we would acknowledge their concern as valid.

 

[Gulo Blue]

...I doubt very much the Russians would care or we would acknowledge their concern as valid.

Not Russians. Putin. Pointing out what Putin doesn't like to justify a position is a completely empty argument in my eyes. He matters because he's dangerous, not because he's right.

 

[Michchamp]

Not Russians. Putin. Pointing out what Putin doesn't like to justify a position is a completely empty argument in my eyes. He matters because he's dangerous, not because he's right.

This idea that Putin is a loose cannon autocrat that controls every single Russian by decree seems like bullshit to me, just like all our other propaganda about leaders we don't like (Hussein, Assad, Ghaddafi, Castro, etc.) but we don't hear about leaders we like, like MbS in Saudi Arabia

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don?t know what strings we?re pulling. The last POTUS wanted NATO members that weren?t the USA to pony up a little more loot and I guess that happened. Maybe that?s why NATO seems more united in all this - they have more skin in the game.

It predates the last POTUS. They pledged to spend 2% of GDP on defense at the 2006 Riga summit. I think Germany just said they'd work to get it to 2% again in response to this war. Of 28 nations, googling articles, it looks like from 2016 we've improved from 5 to 10 nations hitting that mark, but 4 of those countries now hitting the mark are Croatia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Romania. Germany, Canada, Italy, Spain, and Turkey are 5 of the 8 wealthiest and aren't hitting the mark.

 

[Gulo Blue]

This idea that Putin is a loose cannon autocrat that controls every single Russian by decree seems like bullshit to me, just like all our other propaganda about leaders we don't like (Hussein, Assad, Ghaddafi, Castro, etc.) but we don't hear about leaders we like, like MbS in Saudi Arabia

Whaddaboutism

He's an authoritarian.