Weapon of Mass Destruction??? WTF?

[Thumb]

I think the definition of "mass" is whats really in question. Obviously a nuclear weapon, or a biological weapon loaded with weaponized smallpox, or an artillery shell using sarin gas are WMD's.

But is that the extent? What about a Ryder truck loaded with thousands of pounds of ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel? Or a 747 loaded with aviation fuel for a transcontinental flight?

How much "mass" has to be destroyed for something to be classified as a "weapon of mass destruction"?

 

[Thumb]

And Bush was an idiot, agreed. Yet through all of the time since then the only thing ever mentioned other than nukes has been chemical and biological.

I'm not trying to defend Bush with the points I am raising, just referencing WMDs in historical context. Why, through all the years of covering the wars and the very high body count, have the reports on IEDs never once labeled them as WMDs? Has a single prosoner convicted of IEDs in those wars been tried for using WMDs?

It just doesn't seem there has been equivalent justice through the years if we have always considered IEDs as WMDs. Not that two specific crimes will result in exactly the same charges brought, but in a general sense this charge would have been applied before now, no? Did OK City not warrant a WMD charge? The WTC '93 bombing? Atlanta Olympic bombing? Seems it should have been used at least once prior to this.

I don't think the charge existed before those crimes. But if it did I think it's likely McVeigh and Nichols would have faced a WMD charge.

 

[zyxt9]

Vic, I guess the definition could have been broadened and I am not in law so it would likely have been under my radar.

Thumb, I agree the "mass" is not well defined.

It will be interesting to see the degree to which future cases have WMD charges brought. That likely depends on whether or not he is convicted in this case.

 

[Michchamp]

seems like a lot of you are just waking up to the fact that the PATRIOT Act and a lot of the similar legislation and positions taken by law enforcement agencies post 9/11/01 were absurdly broad, and can and do lead to all sorts of abuse and unduly harsh criminal penalties and long sentences.

 

[Michchamp]

...and a lot more people were killed in Texas by the gross negligence of a fertilizer factory foreman, the factory owner, and anyone else who knowingly violated state and federal law in order to squeeze a couple more bucks out of the place, but I haven't heard anyone calling for them to be tortured, condemned to death, etc., or for drones to police industrial zones, more state inspectors (BIG GOVERNMENT!!!!) or for tougher environmental regulations. granted they didn't intentionally detonate 270 tons of ammonium nitrate, but certainly it's almost beyond reckless. at least 14 dead, 200 injured, 50 homes destroyed, massive property damage to the surrounding area...

in fact, it wouldn't be much of stretch to say we're at more of a risk from industrial accidents than we are from terrorism. that makes too much sense for some people, and society as a whole.

 

[byco42]

Bush classified his meaning of "WMD" as nukes. He said it over and over again. That's the difference. Nice try though.

From his UN address:

In 1991, the Iraqi regime agreed to destroy and stop developing all weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles, and to prove to the world it has done so by complying with rigorous inspections. Iraq has broken every aspect of this fundamental pledge.

From 1991 to 1995, the Iraqi regime said it had no biological weapons. After a senior official in its weapons program defected and exposed this lie, the regime admitted to producing tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs, and aircraft spray tanks. U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

 

[Michchamp]

From his UN address:

... Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

LOL. well, we know this part was false, right? No need to re-hash the entire argument, but when you have a country six thousand miles away surrounded, with half it's airspace controlled through no-fly zones, it's absurd to claim such things justify an invasion and occupation anyway.

But I digress...

anyhow, when he said WMD's in 2001, i don't think anyone thought he was seriously talking about ied's. He'd have been laughed off the stage. but it's expedient for law enforcement and prosecutors to take that definition and expand it as it applies domestically. or at least they believe it is, most likely as they expect the harsh sentences they can hand down for charging someone with using a "WMD" will serve as a deterrent.

 

[byco42]

LOL. well, we know this part was false, right? No need to re-hash the entire argument, but when you have a country six thousand miles away surrounded, with half it's airspace controlled through no-fly zones, it's absurd to claim such things justify an invasion and occupation anyway.

But I digress...

anyhow, when he said WMD's in 2001, i don't think anyone thought he was seriously talking about ied's. He'd have been laughed off the stage. but it's expedient for law enforcement and prosecutors to take that definition and expand it as it applies domestically. or at least they believe it is, most likely as they expect the harsh sentences they can hand down for charging someone with using a "WMD" will serve as a deterrent.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm demonstrating that WMDs were inclusive of chemical weapons, and not limited to nukes. Was that not contextually clear?

 

[Monster]

From his UN address:

In 1991, the Iraqi regime agreed to destroy and stop developing all weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles, and to prove to the world it has done so by complying with rigorous inspections. Iraq has broken every aspect of this fundamental pledge.

From 1991 to 1995, the Iraqi regime said it had no biological weapons. After a senior official in its weapons program defected and exposed this lie, the regime admitted to producing tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs, and aircraft spray tanks. U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

Pretty sure zyxt was referring to george W. And with W, he made his case that iraq had wmd's or was actively creating "Nukular" weapons. We already knew he had chemical weapons. Each time he referred to WMD, he was implying nuclear. That was my point. Oh, and that WMD is a vague term.

 

[redandguilty]

...and a lot more people were killed in Texas by the gross negligence of a fertilizer factory foreman, the factory owner, and anyone else who knowingly violated state and federal law in order to squeeze a couple more bucks out of the place, but I haven't heard anyone calling for them to be tortured, condemned to death, etc., or for drones to police industrial zones, more state inspectors (BIG GOVERNMENT!!!!) or for tougher environmental regulations. granted they didn't intentionally detonate 270 tons of ammonium nitrate, but certainly it's almost beyond reckless. at least 14 dead, 200 injured, 50 homes destroyed, massive property damage to the surrounding area...

in fact, it wouldn't be much of stretch to say we're at more of a risk from industrial accidents than we are from terrorism. that makes too much sense for some people, and society as a whole.

Well if unintentional corporate harm is the metric, we're going to need more prisons.

 

[redandguilty]

Pretty sure zyxt was referring to george W. And with W, he made his case that iraq had wmd's or was actively creating "Nukular" weapons. We already knew he had chemical weapons. Each time he referred to WMD, he was implying nuclear. That was my point. Oh, and that WMD is a vague term.

I never thought that. I thought bio and chem were included at the time. Not only that, but didn't they get all excited when they thought they found a chemical weapons stash at one point?

 

[zyxt9]

Well if unintentional corporate harm is the metric, we're going to need more prisons.

I think we need a bigger boat...

What? Too soon???

Hey maybe next time a criminal decides to hide in a boat, maybe they will be smart enough to hide in one that is in the water instead of one that is in Watertown!

 

[zyxt9]

I never thought that. I thought bio and chem were included at the time. Not only that, but didn't they get all excited when they thought they found a chemical weapons stash at one point?

Too many people only heard "blah, blah, nukular, blah, blah'

Not exactly blaming them though, G. W. Was easy to fall asleep listening to.

 

[Michchamp]

Well if unintentional corporate harm is the metric, we're going to need more prisons.

yeah. but we're not talking about a going after some head of HR when a forklift driver with a history of substance abuse knocks a pedestrian over while high...

this was 270 tons of ammonium nitrate stored in violation of federal & state laws, man!

 

[Monster]

We knew they had biological weapons. The reason for going was nukes. And when bush said wmd, he was meaning nukes

 

[Michchamp]

We knew they had biological weapons. The reason for going was nukes. And when bush said wmd, he was meaning nukes

Cheney also made some statements at the time that the anthrax in the letters that were getting mailed around Washington came from Iraq. we know that was untrue, but he's never been held accountable for making those claims.

 

[redandguilty]

yeah. but we're not talking about a going after some head of HR when a forklift driver with a history of substance abuse knocks a pedestrian over while high...

this was 270 tons of ammonium nitrate stored in violation of federal & state laws, man!

What about the 830 tons of McDonalds hamburgers sold every day? How many people does that kill?

 

[redandguilty]

We knew they had biological weapons. The reason for going was nukes. And when bush said wmd, he was meaning nukes

Remember when Powell told the UN all about the mobile bio weapons labs in his WMD speech? We didn't find them, but that was a part of the justification.

 

[zyxt9]

yeah. but we're not talking about a going after some head of HR when a forklift driver with a history of substance abuse knocks a pedestrian over while high...

this was 270 tons of ammonium nitrate stored in violation of federal & state laws, man!

I do believe those responsible should be held accountable. Much depends on who knew what and did what. They were cutting costs illegally and should go to prison IMO. Knowingly violating the law and the result being even less. Atasrophic than this usually does result in someone going to prison. It will be interesting to see who gets the blame and becomes the fall guy so that the Financial Genius responsible for demanding cutting expenses sneeks away. Those finance guys are always so clever.

 

[tinselwolverine]

There's this new guy on CNN, at least I don't recognize him, but when I'm listening to him talk and I'm not looking at the screen, he sounds to me just like Joe Biden.