What a waste...

[LuciousGameWinner]

of talent. If I’m Ward I transfer as soon as the season is done. If I’m a 5 Star I don’t touch Tom Izzo or MSU. Why the hell would you ever play here?? All that you will get from Izzo is getting benched for no reason and being forced to play in the worst offense in the country.
Can’t wait for Izzo to retire. And it’s not an overreaction to losing to Michigan. We’ve squeeked by a lot of bad teams this year.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

I felt the loss coming a mile away. In fact, it was time to drop one. I dont understand izzo benching Ward and Jackson but there was a lot wrong with today. We werent hitting shots wide open all day, giving up easy dribble drive layups, beat at the stripe and out coached. I really dont see this team making it past the sweet 16. They arent tough, they have won on sheer talent of 4 and 5 star guys. Ive been much more confident with many other past teams than this one.

 

[SpartyNash]

I’ll be stunned if this team makes a deep run. Absolutely zero leadership. Pretty terrible coaching job this year too.

Someone please tell josh Langford to wake the fuck up, he has been absolutely dogshit for over a month.

 

[JScottWriter]

I told my dad after the game that they would be lucky to reach the Sweet 16. After saying that I have remember teams I didn't feel good about making the Final 4. Also teams I thought would do great not play well when it matters.

 

[MSUMatt28]

I agree that they were due for a loss and suffering one right before the NCAAs isn't the worst thing to happen. However, what's troubling about this result is that the team is showing a definite ceiling. They played like crap in the first UM game and were in the middle of a short funk and you'd like to chalk it up to that. Today I don't think anyone could fault the effort, but UM just had answers. They don't need to live and die by the 3 like teams in the past. We had them shut down on those late in the first half when it started to look like the 3 games in 3 days fatigue might come into play. But in general they just keep coming at you off the dribble and can withstand the shooting droughts. And that's what happened in the second half. And our offense wasn't crisp enough against a team that was defending well too.

I'll agree with those in saying that Izzo hasn't done a very good job with this team. One the big advantages this team has is their frontline and he's managed to screw that up with his handling of Ward and going way too often in crunch time with both him and Jackson on the bench. Makes no sense at all. In both games vs UM this year, Beilein kicked his butt in regards to halftime adjustments.

And yeah, someone get Langford to wake the hell up. He's been MIA since about January 10th.

 

[SpartyNash]

I agree that they were due for a loss and suffering one right before the NCAAs isn't the worst thing to happen. However, what's troubling about this result is that the team is showing a definite ceiling. They played like crap in the first UM game and were in the middle of a short funk and you'd like to chalk it up to that. Today I don't think anyone could fault the effort, but UM just had answers. They don't need to live and die by the 3 like teams in the past. We had them shut down on those late in the first half when it started to look like the 3 games in 3 days fatigue might come into play. But in general they just keep coming at you off the dribble and can withstand the shooting droughts. And that's what happened in the second half. And our offense wasn't crisp enough against a team that was defending well too.

I'll agree with those in saying that Izzo hasn't done a very good job with this team. One the big advantages this team has is their frontline and he's managed to screw that up with his handling of Ward and going way too often in crunch time with both him and Jackson on the bench. Makes no sense at all. In both games vs UM this year, Beilein kicked his butt in regards to halftime adjustments.

And yeah, someone get Langford to wake the hell up. He's been MIA since about January 10th.

I believe I read he is shooting 36% since the first meeting against Michigan. I?m not expecting him to be a key cog with guys like Winston Bridges Ward etc but we can?t afford these horrific shooting nights with a relatively high volume of shots.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Izzo needs to take a lot of the blame. I think a lot of our offensive struggles stem from the fact that Bridges is our number 1 guy and we force him the ball when in reality he is the 3rd and I’d argue the 4th best option on this team. The fact that we don’t feed Jackson and Ward every single play is frustrating. Both of them have shown that they can play down low and take over games. Bridges throwing up bricks all game isn’t going to get us anywhere.
I said this last game against Michigan and I’ll say it again, todays game encourages you to drive to the basket because the refs will call a foul damn near every single time! It’s almost as if Izzo instructs his players to not do that. He tells them to pass around the three point line and then launch an awful jump shot that has no shot of going in.

Edit: it’s clear that Winston can get to the rim, but it’s almost as if he’s not allowed to do that under Izzo

 

[MSUMatt28]

Yeah, at this point if Izzo isn't going to play Ward (and Wagner is a really bad matchup for which in turn is why UM is a bad matchup for us), then it might be worth looking at putting Jackson at the 5 and going small vs giving a bunch of minutes to Goins. Of course for that to work you either need Langford playing well, or you have to go with 2 PGs (which means more minutes for Nairn). Not having another wing option this year has really hampered the team.

I disagree on Bridges. The team is going to go as far as he takes them and he needs to be option #1, with Winston creating something as #2. But he needs to play inside out more often, not the other way around. He finally did that in the second half when he was just about the only offense the team had. EVen without Izzo screwing him up, Ward can't be your #1 option until he learns how to handle double teams. That still leads to nothing but turnovers and forced shots in the paint.

 

[wheels002]

Partt of the problem you have with this team is they havnt been tested vs a tough team away from home. They only have 2 wins vs tourney teams all year. They played no OOC road games and their toughest road game in the B10 was @Indiana. They never really had to fight and battle vs a good team. They had the two big comebacks on the road vs NW and Iowa but they will be lucky to make the NIT.

 

[gotime909]

Partt of the problem you have with this team is they havnt been tested vs a tough team away from home. They only have 2 wins vs tourney teams all year. They played no OOC road games and their toughest road game in the B10 was @Indiana. They never really had to fight and battle vs a good team. They had the two big comebacks on the road vs NW and Iowa but they will be lucky to make the NIT.

Neutral site whooping of North Carolina??????

Where they play isn't the problem. There worst lost was to Michigan at home.

 

[wheels002]

Neutral site whooping of North Carolina??????

Where they play isn't the problem. There worst lost was to Michigan at home.

Under the new way they are doing things with quadrant wins it is as important as where you play as who you play, Yes MSU did beat UNC at a neutral site and Purdue at home but that is all MSU has as quality wins. Thats it!

a Quadrant 1 win is a win at home vs a team in the top 30. Or a win at a neutral site in the top 50 or a win on the road in the top 75

Quadrant 2: Home 31-75; Neutral 51-100; Away 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160; Neutral 101-200; Away 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 161-plus; Neutral 201-plus; Away 241-plus

So under the new system you get more points in their system for scheduling road games and testing your team then just playing all home games and winning

https://www.hammerandrails.com/2017...rnament-selection-criteria-changes-rpi-kenpom.

 

[MSUMatt28]

Under the new way they are doing things with quadrant wins it is as important as where you play as who you play, Yes MSU did beat UNC at a neutral site and Purdue at home but that is all MSU has as quality wins. Thats it!

a Quadrant 1 win is a win at home vs a team in the top 30. Or a win at a neutral site in the top 50 or a win on the road in the top 75

Quadrant 2: Home 31-75; Neutral 51-100; Away 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160; Neutral 101-200; Away 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 161-plus; Neutral 201-plus; Away 241-plus

So under the new system you get more points in their system for scheduling road games and testing your team then just playing all home games and winning

https://www.hammerandrails.com/2017...rnament-selection-criteria-changes-rpi-kenpom.

Except that it still uses the RPI as the basis for Quadrants. It's putting lipstick on a pig. It seems to me like the committee is getting much lazier. They used to use the RPI as a starting point but could still really look inside a team's schedule see what they'd accomplished during the year, and yes look at subjective arguments (and bump teams that had the appearance of peeking, slide those that were playing more poorly now than in December). Nowadays no matter how much they try to say otherwise, it seems they just look at the RPI (or dress it up with these Quadrants to make it look more legitimate) and call it a day. It has led to a lot of major conference teams getting overseeded the past couple of years only to see that conference flame out in the tournament. Think the Big East the past couple of years and the Big 12 this year. Will probably get lots of bids, but I am not sure any of those teams are really going to do anything.

I think quite honestly we're going to fall to a 3 and I think the long layoff may hurt in that regard. There will be other teams in major conferences that will be able to make runs next week and leave an impression. But the seed is less important at this point than the team going out and playing the way they are capable of.

 

[Sbee]

Partt of the problem you have with this team is they havnt been tested vs a tough team away from home. They only have 2 wins vs tourney teams all year. They played no OOC road games and their toughest road game in the B10 was @Indiana. They never really had to fight and battle vs a good team. They had the two big comebacks on the road vs NW and Iowa but they will be lucky to make the NIT.

There's a lot of truth here, but I'd contend that ND was a top quality win against a good team. We didn't choose the BT schedule but of the top 5 non MSU teams we're 2-3 against them. There is something to be said for not losing to those NIT teams like OSU, UM, and Purdue as well.

This team just isn't tough enough, there's nobody with any edge or nastiness to them other than Ward and he only got 10 minutes yesterday. He got a tech but I want guys who will occasionally get a tech, they push the limit and play physical, tough basketball.

I was screaming at the TV about JJ and Ward not playing. After watching highlights and looking back, JJ was a negative when he was on the court at least defensively. He missed a 3 and put his head down and sulked, then Wagner got a run out lay up, I think we were down 2 or 3, that pushed it to 4 or 5. right after that, he lost sight of Wagner and couldn't close out on that corner 3 that pushed it from 5 to 8. JJ fogged out on defense a number of times, I know he was DPOY due to gaudy shot blocking numbers but he was bad yesterday.

The Ward thing was a mystery, there's times when he's bad on ball screens and maybe they sub in schilling for a while, but he's a force offensively. He almost always scores inside or draws a foul, I thought we could have fed him consistently and gotten Wagner in foul trouble. Same with JJ-Robinson though Robinson has improved as a post defender over the years. Some of this has to do with the guards not making good post entry passes and UM clutching and grabbing just enough not to get whistled.

I'm not sure what to think of this team, I wouldn't be surprised if we won it all and I wouldn't be surprised if we got bounced early. Either we just aren't that good or UM is simply a bad match up of personnel.

 

[MSUMatt28]

There's a lot of truth here, but I'd contend that ND was a top quality win against a good team. We didn't choose the BT schedule but of the top 5 non MSU teams we're 2-3 against them. There is something to be said for not losing to those NIT teams like OSU, UM, and Purdue as well.

This team just isn't tough enough, there's nobody with any edge or nastiness to them other than Ward and he only got 10 minutes yesterday. He got a tech but I want guys who will occasionally get a tech, they push the limit and play physical, tough basketball.

I was screaming at the TV about JJ and Ward not playing. After watching highlights and looking back, JJ was a negative when he was on the court at least defensively. He missed a 3 and put his head down and sulked, then Wagner got a run out lay up, I think we were down 2 or 3, that pushed it to 4 or 5. right after that, he lost sight of Wagner and couldn't close out on that corner 3 that pushed it from 5 to 8. JJ fogged out on defense a number of times, I know he was DPOY due to gaudy shot blocking numbers but he was bad yesterday.

The Ward thing was a mystery, there's times when he's bad on ball screens and maybe they sub in schilling for a while, but he's a force offensively. He almost always scores inside or draws a foul, I thought we could have fed him consistently and gotten Wagner in foul trouble. Same with JJ-Robinson though Robinson has improved as a post defender over the years. Some of this has to do with the guards not making good post entry passes and UM clutching and grabbing just enough not to get whistled.

I'm not sure what to think of this team, I wouldn't be surprised if we won it all and I wouldn't be surprised if we got bounced early. Either we just aren't that good or UM is simply a bad match up of personnel.

Watching the Purdue game, notice they do ALOT of that but get away with it. Also, on the plays where someone is going to the hoop and a UM big (usually Teske, but sometimes Wagner) is already boxing out the would be help defender, which should be called as a moving screen.

As for MSU, like most others I have no idea what to expect going forward. A lot will depend on their matchups I guess and the team's mental state. And hard to say if the long layoff will be better or worse for that. Bridges didn't have a great game yesterday, but his approach needs to be how it was in that second half. Getting down on the block more, and first, and then working outside from there as the opportunities arise.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

So with Michigan winning. Is it possible Purdue UM and MSU are all 3 seeds?

 

[tomdalton22]

So with Michigan winning. Is it possible Purdue UM and MSU are all 3 seeds?

I think MSU still gets a higher seed than UM and Purdue

 

[MSUMatt28]

So with Michigan winning. Is it possible Purdue UM and MSU are all 3 seeds?

At this point UVa, Nova, Xavier, Duke, and Kansas are probably all locked in as 1s or 2s. Whether Purdue or MSU hold on to a 2 probably depends on what teams like UNC or Cincinnati and possibly Auburn/Tennessee do in their conference tournaments.

I think that chances are not good now that both MSU and Purdue get 2's and Purdue is more likely to be slotted ahead of MSU. I think UM moving up to 3 is a decent possibility.

However the past few years in particular Big Ten teams doing well in the BTT seems to have no effect at all. 3 years ago we were hot, went to the BTT finals, took UW to the wire, 12-6 in the Big Ten, still only got a 7. Us not getting the #1 2 years ago when most thought we would. UM winning last year and was one of the hottest teams going in, still only got a 7. Wisky was the regular season and tournament runner-up last year and only got an 8. I think actually the past 2 years have some of the worst seeding jobs I can remember, so I am expecting some head scratchers again.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't understand the bridges as the #1 option argument anymore. the more I watch, the more I think the guy is just kinda lazy. he should be catching 30 foot lobs on fast breaks, grabbing rebounds, making layups, dunks or assists off the dribble and destroying rims but he lags the ball on breakouts, hangs out on the 3 point line, makes lazy dribble turnovers, stupid passes mixed in with a game that seems limited to step back 3s and pull up jumpers from 17'.

 

[MSUMatt28]

I don't understand the bridges as the #1 option argument anymore. the more I watch, the more I think the guy is just kinda lazy. he should be catching 30 foot lobs on fast breaks, grabbing rebounds, making layups, dunks or assists off the dribble and destroying rims but he lags the ball on breakouts, hangs out on the 3 point line, makes lazy dribble turnovers, stupid passes mixed in with a game that seems limited to step back 3s and pull up jumpers from 17'.

The way he has been used this year I would agree. But look in the second half of the UM game when he went down on the block. I think it was probably Matthews who was guarding him, I'm not sure. But he scored on about 3 separate occasions doing that and he made it look easy. It's too bad that by that point UM had kind of taken control of the game. That is what he should have been doing vs college small forwards all season. Is the reason he hasn't because he has been too content to float on the outside (and try to showcase his NBA skills at the 3), or because of the way the offense has been designed? Certainly teams are not going to sit still and let that happen all game, so they'd probably bring a big to help, but if you've spaced things properly (like the way UM does) that is harder to do. And if they do, well then that is going to open things up for other people anyway (Bridges if doubled in the post may not be a great passer, but I am willing to bet he is better in that area than Ward).

Really thinking about it, even removing the issue of whether Ward is in the game and there as another post option or in the doghouse, Bridges and JJJ should have an advantage in the post against just about anyone they're matched up with. Other teams might be able to match up at 1 of those positions, but they are very unlikely to be able to match up in both. And the one that might not have the post advantage can just go outside since either of them can hit 3's. It seems like they haven't taken advantage of those sort of things often enough this year.

 

[Sbee]

I don't understand the bridges as the #1 option argument anymore. the more I watch, the more I think the guy is just kinda lazy. he should be catching 30 foot lobs on fast breaks, grabbing rebounds, making layups, dunks or assists off the dribble and destroying rims but he lags the ball on breakouts, hangs out on the 3 point line, makes lazy dribble turnovers, stupid passes mixed in with a game that seems limited to step back 3s and pull up jumpers from 17'.

The jump shot should be his way of keeping defenders honest so they cover him out on the perimeter. He's a jump shooter first now and drives when they overplay to take that away, of course i'd like to see the reverse and him get to the rim or the line.

Winston is the best player in the team, kind of hard to argue otherwise. We are balanced but Winston should have been 1st team all big ten over almost anyone on there.