Iglasias fight

[biggunsbob]

watching many of the games...I really don't see any evidence that there are ANY leaders on this team.

I agree.. Maybe McCann should have handled it different but him and Iggy were shitting right next to each other yesterday and I agree with TD does this team have any vocal leaders.. They do not.. I would like a Varitek like leader...

 

[kingofdetroit57]

I just don't understand the arguing over this. Both McCann and Avila will both be on this club next season.. If Alex does not figure it out he will be out of baseball in a few years or less. He has to recover and find some semblance of his all-star season. He is a freaking shell of himself.. I guess we will have to see if McCann can be more then a platoon player. Team has plenty of holes in it.. I just do not see catcher as one of them right now. It's like 5th on the list...lol

I don't think Alex is gonna be back. I think Daddy Al's comments at his presser made it pretty clear that he didn't really want Alex here to begin with, that the situation is somewhat awkward now that he's fully in charge, and that it's probably time to move on. I suspect he'll wind up playing for Lloyd in Seattle, in Miami, or wherever Dombrowski lands. I'm think Alex will probably play a couple more years before hanging it up and coming back into the fold of the Tigers organization as a coach/executive trainee... assuming that's something that interests him.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I might be missing something fairly obvious or being someone that believes in the eye test way more. But McCann is hitting .286, Avila is hitting .182. McCann has one of the best CS% in baseball. When McCann is at the plate, he LOOKS like he knows what he's doing. Avila is so far from contact it's beyond scary. Avila's a career 242 hitter, skewed massively by one very good year in 2011. The guy is a walking ambulance, he cannot stay healthy for an entire season.

McCann probably won't be a perennial all star, but he gives you a much better chance to win than Alex Avila.

Don't underestimate the more runs we give up with McCann catching. It does matter.. And as far as hitting, he seems solid against LHP. Not so much against RHP. You remember how we cringe when Alex is batting against a LHP? That's how I feel when McCann faces a RHP. Its exactly how we feel when Ausmus starts Gose against LHP..

I'm not happy with Avila's bat but at this moment, McCann isn't a full time guy.

 

[dubbsco]

Those runs given up by McCann's catching is more of a product of the bullpen and starters being absolute shit. Avila's had the good fortune of catching behind JV in his prime, Scherzer, the good version of Sanchez, Fister, etc... Who's McCann got other than one half-season of David Price?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Those runs given up by McCann's catching is more of a product of the bullpen and starters being absolute shit. Avila's had the good fortune of catching behind JV in his prime, Scherzer, the good version of Sanchez, Fister, etc... Who's McCann got other than one half-season of David Price?

Then why are they better, for the most part, when Avila is catching? And I'm just referring to this season, not prior. Both have been here in 2015, one is much better than the other. You can say he's young, rookie season etc but the facts remain Avila is the better defender and it's farther than you thing.

 

[dubbsco]

Better defender? McCann's near the top of throwing runners out. Maybe better at calling a game? Avila's been in the pros for awhile. Learning how to call a game isn't something developed overnight.

We know what Avila is. A guy who can't hit and can't stay healthy. What's the point of him being here after this season? So if he's not here, and this season is all but gone, why platoon him? That's only going to stunt McCann getting better.

 

[Rebbiv]

So you are saying that CS% isn't important in regards to the catching position? Because from what I remember, that was Alex Avila's biggest calling card as a Tiger forever.

This is McCann's first real season. He sucks versus RHP, but how is he going to potentially get any better at the big league level other than continually getting reps? We know what Avila is.

CS% is more a reflection of the pitcher than the catcher. Most experts will tell you you steal on the pitcher, not the catcher.

With that said, there have been some really bad throwing catchers who made great careers as MLB catchers. Why? Because they excelled at Game Calling and Pitch Framing. Caught Stealing differences really only amount to maybe 5-7 runs over the course of a season. Those runs might mean 1 win difference. Yet, Game Calling can have a greater effect.

 

[Rebbiv]

Those runs given up by McCann's catching is more of a product of the bullpen and starters being absolute shit. Avila's had the good fortune of catching behind JV in his prime, Scherzer, the good version of Sanchez, Fister, etc... Who's McCann got other than one half-season of David Price?

Too bad the results do not back up your statement.


Ian Krol

w/Avila 2.59 ERA 1.34 WHIP .250 BAVG .325 OBP .417 SLG .742 OPS

w/McCann 10.03 ERA 2.57 WHIP .382 BAVG .477 OBP .582 SLG 1.059 OPS


Tom Gorzelanny

w/Avila 4.15 ERA 1.85 WHIP .333 BAVG .400 OBP .444 SLG .844 OPS

w/McCann 8.44 ERA 1.81 WHIP .344 BAVG .411 OBP .585 SLG .996 OPS


Blaine Hardy

w/McCann 2.25 ERA 1.11 WHIP .220 BAVG .281 OBP .300 SLG .581 OPS

w/Avila 3.38 ERA 1.31 WHIP .220 BAVG .304 OBP .317 SLG .621 OPS



With Starters

David Price

w/Avila 2.44 ERA 1.08 WHIP .218 BAVG .272 OBP .302 SLG .574 OPS

w/McCann 2.57 ERA 1.12 WHIP .253 BAVG .285 OBP .409 SLG .694 OPS


Anibal Sanchez

w/Avila 3.96 ERA 1.09 WHIP .214 BAVG .271 OBP .328 SLG .599 OPS

w/McCann 4.80 ERA 1.37 WHIP .266 BAVG .326 OBP .465 SLG .791 OPS


Justin Verlander

w/Avila 4.19 ERA 1.14 WHIP .270 BAVG .289 OBP .378 SLG .668 OPS

w/McCann 4.14 ERA 1.24 WHIP .243 BAVG .304 OBP .400 SLG .704 OPS


Kyle Lobstein

w/Avila 2.14 ERA 1.19 WHIP .234 BAVG .298 OBP .286 SLG .583 OPS

w/McCann 6.08 ERA 1.65 WHIP .318 BAVG .367 OBP .482 SLG .848 OPS


Alfredo Simon

w/Avila 4.58 ERA 1.58 WHIP .300 BAVG .364 OBP .414 SLG .778 OPS

w/McCann 5.01 ERA 1.44 WHIP .276 BAVG .333 OBP .471 SLG .804 OPS


Shane Greene

w/Avila 7.03 ERA 1.44 WHIP .283 BAVG .346 OBP .475 SLG .821 OPS

w/McCann 6.65 ERA 1.56 WHIP .314 BAVG .371 OBP .562 SLG .933 OPS


Closer

Joakim Soria

w/Avila 3.72 ERA 0.62 WHIP .152 BAVG .200 OBP .242 SLG .442 OPS

w/McCann 2.36 ERA 1.07 WHIP .198 BAVG .274 OBP .375 SLG .649 OPS

**BOLD = 35 point difference or greater

The take away is that the vast majority of DET pitchers have a significantly higher SLG Against when McCann is catching. Why do you think there is that difference?

And you cannot just discount everything based on a player being a rookie. There have been plenty of rookies in MLB history that had their career year as a rookie.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Better defender? McCann's near the top of throwing runners out. Maybe better at calling a game? Avila's been in the pros for awhile. Learning how to call a game isn't something developed overnight.

We know what Avila is. A guy who can't hit and can't stay healthy. What's the point of him being here after this season? So if he's not here, and this season is all but gone, why platoon him? That's only going to stunt McCann getting better.

What matters most, that McCann has thrown out 18 batters all year or the lack of pitch calling?

And this isn't about Avila being here for awhile.. I'm just saying based on 2015. If Avila throws out 2 more the % are similar. You're not getting much form his caught stealing as you think..

 

[hellifino]

Here's my stats...

Avila is an automatic out in the lineup
Avila is lazy behind the plate and shows no leadership
Saying Avila has been working longer with the pitchers is a farce. only Verlander and Al Al has been around long enough
Only reason he's in the lineup is because Brad doesn't have the balls to sit him.

McCann is young, a decent hitter, with a good arm and getting better behind the plate framing.


Even his Dad didn't want the Tigers to draft his son,why? cause he Knows MLB talent

 

[Rebbiv]

Here's my stats...

Avila is an automatic out in the lineup
Avila is lazy behind the plate and shows no leadership
Saying Avila has been working longer with the pitchers is a farce. only Verlander and Al Al has been around long enough
Only reason he's in the lineup is because Brad doesn't have the balls to sit him.

McCann is young, a decent hitter, with a good arm and getting better behind the plate framing.


Even his Dad didn't want the Tigers to draft his son,why? cause he Knows MLB talent

I said it, so it must be true?

Too bad there are no stats that back up most of your claims.

 

[dubbsco]

So let me ask you this, after throwing all those stats at me. When Tom Gorz came back from his stint, did he show you ANYTHING to convince you that he has the stuff to be a major league pitcher? Same with Ian Krol, when you watch him throw that stuff which basically doesn't move at ALL, is that because James McCann is behind the dish? If Alex Avila was behind the dish yesterday, would those two be up there throwing heat and making the batters look lost?

No, because those guys are done. Done. They are not major league pitchers. It's a product of them being shit pitchers, not James McCann calling a game and being unable to frame.

 

[Rebbiv]

So let me ask you this, after throwing all those stats at me. When Tom Gorz came back from his stint, did he show you ANYTHING to convince you that he has the stuff to be a major league pitcher? Same with Ian Krol, when you watch him throw that stuff which basically doesn't move at ALL, is that because James McCann is behind the dish? If Alex Avila was behind the dish yesterday, would those two be up there throwing heat and making the batters look lost?

No, because those guys are done. Done. They are not major league pitchers. It's a product of them being shit pitchers, not James McCann calling a game and being unable to frame.

So you explain the difference. It is primarily the slugging percentage that is different.

IMHO, McCann tends to call for more fastballs in hitter's counts. There are differences even with David Price. It isn't just the "bad" pitchers you cite. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Are they bad, or is the who catches them?

 

[dubbsco]

So if a quarterback has a bad rating, is it more on the routes being run, players dropping passes, or is it an indication of the QB not being very good? Ultimately, does anyone really accept responsibility?

These guys are pitchers, they are the ones responsible for shaking the catcher off if they don't like the location, pitch type, etc... They are the ones who perfect their strengths and shore up weaknesses. Personally, it's silly to not put the blame on these guys and just say the catcher isn't doing his job.

I can tell you watching Ian Krol last night, and some of these guys just implode because their pitches don't have any bite on them, my first thought wasn't, "Shit, McCann sucks, he's not calling the right stuff." It was watching these beach balls being thrown to the batter.

 

[amajjd]

I like how the argument keeps being made that McCann is just a platoon player because his OBP v. RHP is .288 and Avila is .348.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how a players weakness is being measured against another guys strength and being discussed as equal.

As for the pitchers stats, I'm guessing it helped Avila starting the year when the team was on fire and when McCann started to take over the wheels started falling off for the entire team.

I will agree that McCann needs to get better at a lot of areas of his game and he might only be a platoon catcher but you have to like his talent for being a rookie in the MLB. If he stays what he is today he will still be on an MLB roster for a lot of years.

 

[sggatecl]

Here's my stats...

Avila is an automatic out in the lineup
Avila is lazy behind the plate and shows no leadership
Saying Avila has been working longer with the pitchers is a farce. only Verlander and Al Al has been around long enough
Only reason he's in the lineup is because Brad doesn't have the balls to sit him.

McCann is young, a decent hitter, with a good arm and getting better behind the plate framing.


Even his Dad didn't want the Tigers to draft his son,why? cause he Knows MLB talent

How very objective of you.

 

[dubbsco]

I'd like to see that stat that a lot of rookies have their career year as rookies, because I find that hard to believe. I would imagine that for every 1 of those cases, you can cite about another 500 that don't until they get a few years experience.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'd like to see that stat that a lot of rookies have their career year as rookies, because I find that hard to believe. I would imagine that for every 1 of those cases, you can cite about another 500 that don't until they get a few years experience.

I think you're confused.. This is not about him being a rookie and all that other crap. Based on 2015 McCann is not hitting vs RHP. His throwing out base runners is marginal and he calls a worse game.

If McCann is similar throughout his career, and he is our full time starter, we're in trouble.

It's like LKP bringing up Stafford's 2011 season. as far 2015, McCann has proven he sucks vs RHP. And doesn't call a good game. These are independent of Avila. Just take Alex out of the conversation.. Just McCann, he does well against LHP, horrible vs RHP - has a nice arm but not so good with the pitch calling. These are facts, and no one can argue that. If you want 2015 McCann to be 2016 McCann we're in trouble..

 

[Mitchrapp]

And it's funny you bring of that McCann is a rookie yet Avila had a good rookie year and never hit the same. So why would McCann improve?

 

[Thumb]

Even his Dad didn't want the Tigers to draft his son,why? cause he Knows MLB talent

Ignorance will prevent this from making any sense to you, but talent has nothing to do with why Al Avila didn't want the Tigers to draft his son. It's actually because of the same reason that Jim Leyland did not want the Tigers to draft his son Patrick. It puts you in the position of being accused of nepotism. Much easier for you not to be responsible for the professional future of you son.

And I fully expect the Tigers will let Alex walk in the offseason. How this thread devolved from McCann and Gose vs. Iggy into McCann vs. Avila makes little sense to me honestly.

EDIT: Also if he knows MLB talent so well, why haven't we drafted better? This question alone destroys the simpleminded notion you put forth.