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2022 Mid Terms

except when it comes to vaccines, right? good one. abortion is not healthcare, it's murder for convenience sake. no one has the right to murder innocent and defenseless humans. A misguided vote or consensus doesn't validate your wrong-headed and false arguments.

And all your screaming and whining doesn't invalidate the right to body autonomy of 165 Million citizens. Your beliefs end at someone else's body, period. Even voters in Kentucky recognized that last week. You don't get to tell people how to live their lives based on your beliefs.

On Covid, the law absolutely gives broad authority to government officials to shut down businesses, enforce mask mandates, and even encourage vaccination in times of a health crisis. The SCOTUS ruled some vaccine mandates went to far, but left others in place. People have the right to not get vaccinated, but then their employer has the right to not employ them if they feel the risk of illness spreading is too high, and businesses have the right not to serve them if they feel they don't want to risk the lives of other customers and employers. Don't want to get vaccinated, fine and dandy, but don't expect others to give up their rights to accommodate you.

Again, Whitmer got high marks for how she handled Covid, the voters rewarded her with 4 more years in office. And they rewarded Democrats all across the state with a blue wave that featured a literal sweep of all state wide offices, and the flipping of both houses of state congress to Democrat, as well as keeping the Michigan State supreme court majority Democrat.

Your side lost, because people think your side is more full of shit on the issues. Deal with it.
 
the rich guys who buy and sell politicians on both sides, every election cycle are thrilled with term limits laws: prevent any politician from getting some actual clout and power that they might try and wield.

And no one can oppose them without the drooling mouth-breathers slobbering about career politicians, because they can't do math and understand they guy with $1,000,000,000 in assets has power that the governor making $200,000/year will never have.
 
And all your screaming and whining doesn't invalidate the right to body autonomy of 165 Million citizens. Your beliefs end at someone else's body, period. Even voters in Kentucky recognized that last week. You don't get to tell people how to live their lives based on your beliefs.

On Covid, the law absolutely gives broad authority to government officials to shut down businesses, enforce mask mandates, and even encourage vaccination in times of a health crisis. The SCOTUS ruled some vaccine mandates went to far, but left others in place. People have the right to not get vaccinated, but then their employer has the right to not employ them if they feel the risk of illness spreading is too high, and businesses have the right not to serve them if they feel they don't want to risk the lives of other customers and employers. Don't want to get vaccinated, fine and dandy, but don't expect others to give up their rights to accommodate you.

Again, Whitmer got high marks for how she handled Covid, the voters rewarded her with 4 more years in office. And they rewarded Democrats all across the state with a blue wave that featured a literal sweep of all state wide offices, and the flipping of both houses of state congress to Democrat, as well as keeping the Michigan State supreme court majority Democrat.

Your side lost, because people think your side is more full of shit on the issues. Deal with it.

except that there's another body in the conversation, one whose right to life trump's your belief in another's right to kill it. It's like you said, a person's right to bodily autonomy ends at someone else's body, period. No amount of attempts to dehumanize the unborn will validate the murder of them.

as for COVID, the law doesn't allow for the government to overreach its authority - that's simply false. there is no clause in the Constitution that states "none of these freedoms apply if there is a virus." I read it, it's not in there. The fact that you're OK with it because there's a left wing law professor somewhere that thinks it's a good idea doesn't make it legal or even the right thing to do.

And quit moving the goal posts - it wasn't private employers or businesses choosing to require employees or patrons be vaccinated, it was the government pushing mandates onto the private sector. A lot of businesses were opposed to the mandates, many of them in uber-liberal NY would serve you if you flashed your driver's license when they asked for your COVID passport. The risk of getting caught was worth trying to keep their businesses afloat.

This wasn't a single issue election - do you have data that shows Whitmer's approval ratings on COVID. Anything newer than early 20021? Because what I saw was her approval rating drop 8 points from 58 to 50 in 2021 and that's overall, it didn't single out her handling of the pandemic. Either way, like I said Michigan is a shit hole and the idiots that voted for this garbage get what they deserve. They have no one to blame but themselves.

The reason more people think my side is full of shit is because there are that many people who are as ill-informed as you - blissfully ignorant of the truth because orange man bad or whatever it is you're about now.
 
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the rich guys who buy and sell politicians on both sides, every election cycle are thrilled with term limits laws: prevent any politician from getting some actual clout and power that they might try and wield.

And no one can oppose them without the drooling mouth-breathers slobbering about career politicians, because they can't do math and understand they guy with $1,000,000,000 in assets has power that the governor making $200,000/year will never have.

yeah, that's definitely not true and also a really dumb take. There isn't a single billionaire mega donor calling for term limits - they want to maximize their return on investment. They don't want to be forced to find a new candidate every 2 cycles. Maybe a libertarian like Peter Thiel is pushing term limits, but I'm not aware of a single Dem mega donor that is pushing for them.
 
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that's what I said


Doesn't matter, there is no electoral math here. More people in the entire state wanted Whitmer rather than Dixon, not just those cities.

But that doesn't matter spartanTrump said Michigan was a "shithole state", so we should all just feel bad regardless of who won.
 
Does this mean we can finally keep abortion off the ballots now for 24? the states have decided, it's no longer a main stay political wedge now moving forward right?
 
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Doesn't matter, there is no electoral math here. More people in the entire state wanted Whitmer rather than Dixon, not just those cities.

But that doesn't matter spartanTrump said Michigan was a "shithole state", so we should all just feel bad regardless of who won.

feel however you want, I'm just stating the facts - the state is a shithole. I live in New Jersey and before that Illinois and I'd stay here or move back to Illinois (the lessers of three shitholes) before I'd ever consider living in Michigan again.
 
except that there's another body in the conversation, one whose right to life trump's your belief in another's right to kill it. It's like you said, a person's right to bodily autonomy ends at someone else's body, period. No amount of attempts to dehumanize the unborn will validate the murder of them.

as for COVID, the law doesn't allow for the government to overreach its authority - that's simply false. there is no clause in the Constitution that states "none of these freedoms apply if there is a virus." I read it, it's not in there. The fact that you're OK with it because there's a left wing law professor somewhere that thinks it's a good idea doesn't make it legal or even the right thing to do.

And quit moving the goal posts - it wasn't private employers or businesses choosing to require employees or patrons be vaccinated, it was the government pushing mandates onto the private sector. A lot of businesses were opposed to the mandates, many of them in uber-liberal NY would serve you if you flashed your driver's license when they asked for your COVID passport. The risk of getting caught was worth trying to keep their businesses afloat.

This wasn't a single issue election - do you have data that shows Whitmer's approval ratings on COVID. Anything newer than early 20021? Because what I saw was her approval rating drop 8 points from 58 to 50 in 2021 and that's overall, it didn't single out her handling of the pandemic. Either way, like I said Michigan is a shit hole and the idiots that voted for this garbage get what they deserve. They have no one to blame but themselves.

The reason more people think my side is full of shit is because there are that many people who are as ill-informed as you - blissfully ignorant of the truth because orange man bad or whatever it is you're about now.

You should do stand up, really funny stuff.

No other person has the right to take control of another person's body if they need to to live. Simple as that. Why do 10 gram fetuses have more rights than me when I can't decide I need my neighbors kidney and force them to give it to me because I need it to live.

Whitmer regularly polled close to 60% or above on Covid, Covid has largely been over in Michigan since mid 2021, so why would there be new polls about her handling of something that's in the past? All Covid restrictions were eased or eliminated by Mid 2021. She was at 54-43 job approval numbers heading into the election. https://morningconsult.com/2022/10/11/whitmers-approval-ticks-up-in-michigan-ahead-of-midterms/

And low and behold, wouldn't you know it, that's the numbers she won the lection by. Dixon is far outside the mainstream on many issues, not the least of abortion. Almost no one thinks abortion should be banned for victims of incest, Dixon was clear that's what she thinks. The state sent her packing back to her softcore vampire porn career.

Dude posting blatant misinformation about Prop 3 says other people are misinformed. LOL. People knew exactly what they were voting for last Tuesday and it was a blue wave in our state.

I hope your side keeps it up the way you are doing, it's going to cost Republicans seats every election going forward. Your beliefs don't entitle you to impose them on the rest of the country, no matter how much you think you're right.
 
You should do stand up, really funny stuff.

No other person has the right to take control of another person's body if they need to to live. Simple as that. Why do 10 gram fetuses have more rights than me when I can't decide I need my neighbors kidney and force them to give it to me because I need it to live.

The kidney hypothetical has been debunked thoroughly but I'm not surprised you're unaware of the argument. I'll explain it to you because I'm sure you won't seek out the answer yourself. By refusing to give someone a kidney, you're not killing them - you don't intend for them to die and they don't die because of any action you take. Abortion is the intentional killing of another human being. Big difference, although I don't expect you to grasp it necessarily. Furthermore, a fetus doesn't require taking your kidney or any other organs - all it uses (temporarily) is an organ that is specifically designed for one purpose and one purpose only - the gestation of a human being. And it's left intact when the child is born. You could permanently remove a woman's uterus without doing any harm. Not so of kidneys, the liver, heart, etc. Also, the law has clearly established that parents have certain legal obligations to care for their children. If you abuse or neglect your child to the point he/she dies (stab, shoot or starve your child) that's manslaughter or even murder. Children in the womb are just as human, have the same moral value and deserve the same protections extended to all other humans.

Whitmer regularly polled close to 60% or above on Covid, Covid has largely been over in Michigan since mid 2021, so why would there be new polls about her handling of something that's in the past? All Covid restrictions were eased or eliminated by Mid 2021. She was at 54-43 job approval numbers heading into the election. https://morningconsult.com/2022/10/11/whitmers-approval-ticks-up-in-michigan-ahead-of-midterms/

And low and behold, wouldn't you know it, that's the numbers she won the lection by. Dixon is far outside the mainstream on many issues, not the least of abortion. Almost no one thinks abortion should be banned for victims of incest, Dixon was clear that's what she thinks. The state sent her packing back to her softcore vampire porn career.

This is simply false, Whitmer's approval rating tanked during COVID - it dropped a full 8 points and again that was her overall rating so presumably her ratings on COVID would have been at least that bad or worse. And the pandemic has been over everywhere since mid 2021, not just Michigan.

Dude posting blatant misinformation about Prop 3 says other people are misinformed. LOL. People knew exactly what they were voting for last Tuesday and it was a blue wave in our state.

I hope your side keeps it up the way you are doing, it's going to cost Republicans seats every election going forward. Your beliefs don't entitle you to impose them on the rest of the country, no matter how much you think you're right.

still waiting for evidence of any misinformation - all I've done is show you the text of the proposition which clearly overrides any "viability" restrictions. So far all we know for sure is you had no idea what was in Prop 3 when you voted and still refuse to see it even after reading it and don't understand how rights work or that facts aren't based on consensus.
 
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feel however you want, I'm just stating the facts - the state is a shithole. I live in New Jersey and before that Illinois and I'd stay here or move back to Illinois (the lessers of three shitholes) before I'd ever consider living in Michigan again.

New Jersey? LOL! Well, New Jersey is much more liberal than Michigan and therefore is #1 in education and has the 5th lowest crime rate in the US. Michigan's economy is a little better though and has better nature. Thanks, I'll stay in Michigan, it's about to get really good.
 
A fetus doesn't require taking your kidney or any other organs - all it uses is an organ that is specifically designed for one purpose and one purpose only - the gestation of a human being.



And low and behold, wouldn't you know it, that's the numbers she won the lection by. Dixon is far outside the mainstream on many issues, not the least of abortion. Almost no one thinks abortion should be banned for victims of incest, Dixon was clear that's what she thinks. The state sent her packing back to her softcore vampire porn career.

This is simply false, Whitmer's approval rating tanked during COVID - it dropped a full 8 points and again that was her overall rating so presumably her ratings on COVID would have been at least that bad or worse. And the pandemic has been over everywhere since mid 2021, not just Michigan.



still waiting for evidence of any misinformation - all I've done is show you the text of the proposition which clearly overrides any "viability" restrictions. So far all we know for sure is you had no idea what was in Prop 3 when you voted and still refuse to see it even after reading it and don't understand how rights work or that facts aren't based on consensus.[/QUOTE]

Abortion up to the point of birth and beyond including for minors without parental consent. Radical, ahistorical and blatantly racist race theory in classrooms. Anti science gender policies being administered by teachers (people with degrees in education - mostly dopes) and radical activist doctors ignoring science trampling women?s and parents rights and mutilating children. Trampling the constitution forcing businesses to close unnecessarily (again ignoring science), violating liberties and destroying the economy.

Michigan elected extremism and voted against the constitution, women and parents. That?s why it?s a shit hole - so many brain dead sheep like you.

You don't think that you posted blatant misinformation here? "Abortion up to the point of birth and beyond including for minors without parental consent."
 
Furthermore, anything still undecided gets worked out in the courts, like normal, this doesn't invalidate any other laws, but the 1931 one.:

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-g...oposal-effect-parent-consent-other-laws-murky

LANSING ? Reproductive Freedom for All, the proposal to enshrine abortion rights to the Michigan constitution, should make the November ballot, state Bureau of Elections staff recommended Thursday.

But much of the initiative?s effect ? such as its impact on parental consent laws, late-term abortions and medical professionals who perform abortions ? is murky, according to campaign attorneys, opponents and third-party legal experts.

SPONSOR

Organizers of the measure ? hailed by supporters as the most effective move to keep abortion legal in Michigan ? turned in a historic 753,000 signatures to qualify for the ballot. The momentum reflects a boost in volunteers and donations after the U.S. Supreme Court in June overturned Roe v. Wade, the landmark case that offered federal protection of abortion rights for nearly 50 years.

Related:

Judge: Michigan abortion ban ?dangerous,? old law unenforceable amid suits
Michigan abortion waits stretch for weeks as out?of-state patients pour in
Tudor Dixon opposes abortion after rape, but Dem attack ads twist her words
The Board of State Canvassers must certify the measure before Sept. 9 for it to appear on the November ballot. If approved by voters, the measure would guarantee Michiganders a constitutional right to abortion, birth control and postpartum care, among other things.

The summary of the ballot measure ? drafted by the Bureau of Elections ? states the proposal would ?invalidate all state laws that conflict with this amendment.? Opponents have deemed the measure an ?anything goes? proposal that would eradicate all existing restrictions on abortion in the state, but supporters argue that is not the case.



During a press conference Thursday morning, campaign spokesperson Darci McConnell repeatedly told reporters the measure ?simply restores the rights that were lost under Roe v. Wade.?

Abortion is legal in Michigan ? for now. The issue is held up in court, with an Oakland County judge last week issuing a preliminary injunction against the enforcement of Michigan?s 1931 abortion ban, which would made abortion a felony. The ban itself is also blocked from taking effect by Court of Claims Judge Elizabeth Gleicher.

The state also has several other laws restricting abortion access, according to an analysis by the reproductive health research group Guttmacher Institute. That includes requirements for minors to obtain consent from parents or guardians, unless waived by a judge, before accessing abortion; informed consent requirements and a 24-hour wait period for patients; restrictions on public financing for abortion services, and limits on private insurance coverage for abortions.

Steve Liedel, attorney for the ballot campaign, told Bridge Michigan on Thursday the proposed constitutional amendment would invalidate the 1931 abortion ban and keep abortion legal in Michigan.

?The sure effect ? is to restore the status quo when Roe was still the law of the land,? he said.

Liedel said, the ballot measure would not effectively nullify any other state restrictions on abortion ? unless prosecutors or executive officials deem them unenforceable or a judge rules them unconstitutional. During the Thursday press conference, he deemed the ballot measure summary ?inaccurate.?

?That?s what the board was willing to approve,? Liedel said of the summary language. ?The provision itself on its own does not invalidate any other laws.?

And nothing is certain until the state Legislature provides clarity through legislation, the state attorney general issues an opinion, or a judge ultimately decides, Liedel said.

?When there are gray areas or questions, folks will work those out,? he said.

Opponents, such as John Bursch, legal counsel with conservative advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom, argue the constitutional amendment will clearly contradict existing state restrictions on abortion.

?A constitutional right would trump the (state) statute,? Bursch said. ?This amendment doesn?t have any constraint on the right as it applies to every individual.?

Here are three areas of dispute among legal experts and attorneys on both sides:

Parental consent
The ballot initiative gives all individuals the fundamental right to reproductive services, including abortion, without differentiating minors from adults. The language protects that right, but allows the state to regulate after fetal viability as long as it does not prohibit an abortion that, ?in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual.?

?An individual?s right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, nor infringed upon unless justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means,? the language reads.

Bursch argues the provision essentially contradicts the state?s law requiring minors to obtain written consent from their parents or ask a judge to waive that requirement.

?Because an individual includes everybody no matter how old they are, I don?t know how any lawyer could look at this and think that the state could impose a limitation,? he said.

But Mae Kuykendall, a law professor at Michigan State University who teaches constitutional law, said the constitutional amendment does not negate the parental consent law, because the state law does not pose a ?burden? to minors wishing to access abortion.

?The minor has the right, but the minor cannot exercise it exactly the same way as an adult,? she told Bridge. ?You would be providing assistance to the minor, not a burden.?

To depict the constitutional amendment as an ?anything goes? proposal allowing any child to access abortion without parental consent is ?an overstatement.?

?It may create the opening for some modification,? she said.

Liedel, who advises the ballot campaign, told Bridge any state law is by default constitutional until ?a court says otherwise.?

?If you believe that under this new constitutional amendment, that it is a burden to go seek a judicial determination of your best interest notwithstanding your parents? rights, then you do that,? he said. ?And if you want to challenge it, you may.?

State ability to regulate abortion
The ballot initiative would allow the state to regulate abortions after fetal viability ? to some extent, Liedel said.

Although the state would not be able to ban abortion, Liedel said the state could still pass laws to tighten the licensing of abortion providers, strenghten disciplinary actions and other public health and safety regulations, as long as those laws are not ?burdensome? without ?a compelling state interest.?

Bursch, however, argued the state would have little to no say in when to apply restrictions to abortions. The ballot language leaves the decision making power completely to the abortion provider?s ?professional judgment,? regardless of how the state defines ?physical or mental health? of an abortion patient, he said.

?The abortionists are the ones that get paid to take an innocent unborn child?s life at 25 weeks or at 28 weeks,? Bursch said, suggesting their monetary incentives could trump their professional judgment whether an abortion is necessary.

?All they have to do then is say to the prosecutor ? ?Well, this person expressed to me that they would be in severe mental distress if they went through and had this baby who was scheduled to be born the following day,?? he said. ??So in my professional judgment, I thought that mental health risk justified performing the abortion.??

Kuykendall said the state could define the term ?attending health care professional? to exclude non-medical professionals and spell out what ?physical and mental health? for an abortion patient means.

?I would think the judges can use nuanced reason (to decide), ?Is it a mental problem if you decided you want to go to Paris today, you can?t have this baby, so please abort it??? she said. ?There?s existing understanding of serious situations that arise in pregnancies that point to an abortion.?

?Extreme? and ?unreasonable? interpretations of the constitutional amendment, she said, would not prevail in the court.

?Any law can be subject to different interpretations,? she said. ?But it?s ludicrous to say a massage therapist would be the one (performing abortions). A massage therapist could not be involved in providing an abortion.?

Late-term abortions, malpractice claims
Bursch also argued the ballot initiative would effectively allow abortions up until the moment of birth.

Late-term abortions, however, are rare. As Bridge previously reported, almost 93 percent of the 629,898 abortions nationwide in 2019 were performed no more than 13 weeks? gestation, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A little over 6 percent were performed between 14 and 20 weeks of gestation and less than 1 percent were performed beyond 21 weeks.

Bursch acknowledged the rarity of late-term abortions, but deemed the roughly 6 percent that took place between 14 and 20 weeks of gestation ?a barbaric, gross offense.? Late-term abortions can still happen under the ballot measure, he claimed, as long as an abortion patient tells the provider they suffer from mental health problems such as anxiety.

But most Americans do not seek late-term abortion up until the moment of birth simply because they are unhappy with their pregnancies, according to the health care research nonprofit group Kaiser Family Foundation. Individuals seek late-term abortions for a variety of reasons, including not knowing they are pregnant, raising funds to afford the procedure and associated costs, and health care concerns for the fetus or for themselves, the analysis shows.

?I don?t understand how they think there?s actually also a way to just say, ?The day before you are about to have a healthy baby, I changed my mind,?? Kuykendall said. ?Women don?t do that. It?s fake.?

Bursch also argued the ballot measure, which bans ?adverse action? by the state against abortion patients and their providers, would prohibit patients from suing doctors for malpractice if something went wrong with the abortion procedures.

?In order to enforce a malpractice statute, you?d have to go to court and you?d have to get a judgment,? he said. ?And who renders judgment? State courts. That is the state.?

Liedel deemed the argument an effort to ?distort? what the constitutional amendment actually does.

SPONSOR

?You can?t take a provision in isolation,? Liedel said.

Kuykendall said courts would not construe the constitutional amendment as giving doctors full immunity to malpractice, arguing that would violate the patient?s right to due process.

?An example of how that language can protect a doctor is if she gives an abortion to a minor after a judicial byass says it is ok. The parents cannot sue the doctor,? she said. ?That would be an example of the work the provision is for.?
 
New Jersey? LOL! Well, New Jersey is much more liberal than Michigan and therefore is #1 in education and has the 5th lowest crime rate in the US. Michigan's economy is a little better though and has better nature. Thanks, I'll stay in Michigan, it's about to get really good.

New Jersey is also a shit hole but I married into it so here I am. Like anywhere else, public education sucks everywhere except for the affluent suburbs - New Jersey is far more affluent than Michigan and our urban centers are much smaller (biggest city is less than 350k people) so it's a pretty low bar to be ranked ahead of them on that score. And like Michigan, our public schools are going to complete shit which is why we have our kids in Catholic school.

As for the economy, we've been solidly blue for much longer so we're way ahead on the corruption index - we've had way more time to spend money we don't have but I'm confident you'll catch up and you don't have anywhere near the tax base we do (because it's a shithole no one wants to live in), so you could easily be in much worse shape very soon.

We're the Garden State - much smaller than Michigan but very beautiful - could be a pretty good place if not for all the libs.
 
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You don't think that you posted blatant misinformation here? "Abortion up to the point of birth and beyond including for minors without parental consent."

That post was about the Democrat platform in general, before we got on the prop 3 discussion and it's indisputable that every one of those points is a part of their agenda. That's what Whitmer stands for and that's what her voters are endorsing. If you think they will support any commonsense restrictions on abortion let alone codify them into law, you're out of your mind. I stand by that comment.

As it relates to Prop 3 specifically, i've said in other posts I didn't say it allows for abortion for minors without parental consent. I also never said prop 3 would allow for mutilating "gender affirming" care. Because unlike you I read Prop 3 and because I read it, I did say and have clearly demonstrated that prop 3 effectively eliminates any restrictions on abortion - this viability clause is intentionally vague and provides an easy work-around for late term abortions. That's is also indisputable.

And the parental consent law already has a workaround for minors who want an abortion without parental consent. All they have to do is find profit hungry doctor and a friendly liberal judge - probably not too hard to do in Michigan as it becomes more of a leftist shithole.

All of that is fact.
 
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Furthermore, anything still undecided gets worked out in the courts, like normal, this doesn't invalidate any other laws, but the 1931 one.:

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-g...oposal-effect-parent-consent-other-laws-murky

LANSING ? Reproductive Freedom for All, the proposal to enshrine abortion rights to the Michigan constitution, should make the November ballot, state Bureau of Elections staff recommended Thursday.

But much of the initiative?s effect ? such as its impact on parental consent laws, late-term abortions and medical professionals who perform abortions ? is murky, according to campaign attorneys, opponents and third-party legal experts.

SPONSOR

Organizers of the measure ? hailed by supporters as the most effective move to keep abortion legal in Michigan ? turned in a historic 753,000 signatures to qualify for the ballot. The momentum reflects a boost in volunteers and donations after the U.S. Supreme Court in June overturned Roe v. Wade, the landmark case that offered federal protection of abortion rights for nearly 50 years.

Related:

Judge: Michigan abortion ban ?dangerous,? old law unenforceable amid suits
Michigan abortion waits stretch for weeks as out?of-state patients pour in
Tudor Dixon opposes abortion after rape, but Dem attack ads twist her words
The Board of State Canvassers must certify the measure before Sept. 9 for it to appear on the November ballot. If approved by voters, the measure would guarantee Michiganders a constitutional right to abortion, birth control and postpartum care, among other things.

The summary of the ballot measure ? drafted by the Bureau of Elections ? states the proposal would ?invalidate all state laws that conflict with this amendment.? Opponents have deemed the measure an ?anything goes? proposal that would eradicate all existing restrictions on abortion in the state, but supporters argue that is not the case.



During a press conference Thursday morning, campaign spokesperson Darci McConnell repeatedly told reporters the measure ?simply restores the rights that were lost under Roe v. Wade.?

Abortion is legal in Michigan ? for now. The issue is held up in court, with an Oakland County judge last week issuing a preliminary injunction against the enforcement of Michigan?s 1931 abortion ban, which would made abortion a felony. The ban itself is also blocked from taking effect by Court of Claims Judge Elizabeth Gleicher.

The state also has several other laws restricting abortion access, according to an analysis by the reproductive health research group Guttmacher Institute. That includes requirements for minors to obtain consent from parents or guardians, unless waived by a judge, before accessing abortion; informed consent requirements and a 24-hour wait period for patients; restrictions on public financing for abortion services, and limits on private insurance coverage for abortions.

Steve Liedel, attorney for the ballot campaign, told Bridge Michigan on Thursday the proposed constitutional amendment would invalidate the 1931 abortion ban and keep abortion legal in Michigan.

?The sure effect ? is to restore the status quo when Roe was still the law of the land,? he said.

Liedel said, the ballot measure would not effectively nullify any other state restrictions on abortion ? unless prosecutors or executive officials deem them unenforceable or a judge rules them unconstitutional. During the Thursday press conference, he deemed the ballot measure summary ?inaccurate.?

?That?s what the board was willing to approve,? Liedel said of the summary language. ?The provision itself on its own does not invalidate any other laws.?

And nothing is certain until the state Legislature provides clarity through legislation, the state attorney general issues an opinion, or a judge ultimately decides, Liedel said.

?When there are gray areas or questions, folks will work those out,? he said.

Opponents, such as John Bursch, legal counsel with conservative advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom, argue the constitutional amendment will clearly contradict existing state restrictions on abortion.

?A constitutional right would trump the (state) statute,? Bursch said. ?This amendment doesn?t have any constraint on the right as it applies to every individual.?

Here are three areas of dispute among legal experts and attorneys on both sides:

Parental consent
The ballot initiative gives all individuals the fundamental right to reproductive services, including abortion, without differentiating minors from adults. The language protects that right, but allows the state to regulate after fetal viability as long as it does not prohibit an abortion that, ?in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual.?

?An individual?s right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, nor infringed upon unless justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means,? the language reads.

Bursch argues the provision essentially contradicts the state?s law requiring minors to obtain written consent from their parents or ask a judge to waive that requirement.

?Because an individual includes everybody no matter how old they are, I don?t know how any lawyer could look at this and think that the state could impose a limitation,? he said.

But Mae Kuykendall, a law professor at Michigan State University who teaches constitutional law, said the constitutional amendment does not negate the parental consent law, because the state law does not pose a ?burden? to minors wishing to access abortion.

?The minor has the right, but the minor cannot exercise it exactly the same way as an adult,? she told Bridge. ?You would be providing assistance to the minor, not a burden.?

To depict the constitutional amendment as an ?anything goes? proposal allowing any child to access abortion without parental consent is ?an overstatement.?

?It may create the opening for some modification,? she said.

Liedel, who advises the ballot campaign, told Bridge any state law is by default constitutional until ?a court says otherwise.?

?If you believe that under this new constitutional amendment, that it is a burden to go seek a judicial determination of your best interest notwithstanding your parents? rights, then you do that,? he said. ?And if you want to challenge it, you may.?

State ability to regulate abortion
The ballot initiative would allow the state to regulate abortions after fetal viability ? to some extent, Liedel said.

Although the state would not be able to ban abortion, Liedel said the state could still pass laws to tighten the licensing of abortion providers, strenghten disciplinary actions and other public health and safety regulations, as long as those laws are not ?burdensome? without ?a compelling state interest.?

Bursch, however, argued the state would have little to no say in when to apply restrictions to abortions. The ballot language leaves the decision making power completely to the abortion provider?s ?professional judgment,? regardless of how the state defines ?physical or mental health? of an abortion patient, he said.

?The abortionists are the ones that get paid to take an innocent unborn child?s life at 25 weeks or at 28 weeks,? Bursch said, suggesting their monetary incentives could trump their professional judgment whether an abortion is necessary.

?All they have to do then is say to the prosecutor ? ?Well, this person expressed to me that they would be in severe mental distress if they went through and had this baby who was scheduled to be born the following day,?? he said. ??So in my professional judgment, I thought that mental health risk justified performing the abortion.??

Kuykendall said the state could define the term ?attending health care professional? to exclude non-medical professionals and spell out what ?physical and mental health? for an abortion patient means.

?I would think the judges can use nuanced reason (to decide), ?Is it a mental problem if you decided you want to go to Paris today, you can?t have this baby, so please abort it??? she said. ?There?s existing understanding of serious situations that arise in pregnancies that point to an abortion.?

?Extreme? and ?unreasonable? interpretations of the constitutional amendment, she said, would not prevail in the court.

?Any law can be subject to different interpretations,? she said. ?But it?s ludicrous to say a massage therapist would be the one (performing abortions). A massage therapist could not be involved in providing an abortion.?

Late-term abortions, malpractice claims
Bursch also argued the ballot initiative would effectively allow abortions up until the moment of birth.

Late-term abortions, however, are rare. As Bridge previously reported, almost 93 percent of the 629,898 abortions nationwide in 2019 were performed no more than 13 weeks? gestation, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A little over 6 percent were performed between 14 and 20 weeks of gestation and less than 1 percent were performed beyond 21 weeks.

Bursch acknowledged the rarity of late-term abortions, but deemed the roughly 6 percent that took place between 14 and 20 weeks of gestation ?a barbaric, gross offense.? Late-term abortions can still happen under the ballot measure, he claimed, as long as an abortion patient tells the provider they suffer from mental health problems such as anxiety.

But most Americans do not seek late-term abortion up until the moment of birth simply because they are unhappy with their pregnancies, according to the health care research nonprofit group Kaiser Family Foundation. Individuals seek late-term abortions for a variety of reasons, including not knowing they are pregnant, raising funds to afford the procedure and associated costs, and health care concerns for the fetus or for themselves, the analysis shows.

?I don?t understand how they think there?s actually also a way to just say, ?The day before you are about to have a healthy baby, I changed my mind,?? Kuykendall said. ?Women don?t do that. It?s fake.?

Bursch also argued the ballot measure, which bans ?adverse action? by the state against abortion patients and their providers, would prohibit patients from suing doctors for malpractice if something went wrong with the abortion procedures.

?In order to enforce a malpractice statute, you?d have to go to court and you?d have to get a judgment,? he said. ?And who renders judgment? State courts. That is the state.?

Liedel deemed the argument an effort to ?distort? what the constitutional amendment actually does.

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?You can?t take a provision in isolation,? Liedel said.

Kuykendall said courts would not construe the constitutional amendment as giving doctors full immunity to malpractice, arguing that would violate the patient?s right to due process.

?An example of how that language can protect a doctor is if she gives an abortion to a minor after a judicial byass says it is ok. The parents cannot sue the doctor,? she said. ?That would be an example of the work the provision is for.?

Thank you for highlighting the problems with prop 3 - specifically, the state would have little to no say in when to apply restrictions to abortions. Kuykendall's arguments that the state could pass laws that restrict who could perform abortions or make judgements about the physical or mental well-being, are garbage because that will never happen. The fact that they could do it is irrelevant because again, you can't name a single Dem politician who will even answer the question about whether or not they support any restrictions on abortion.

Her entire argument is "technically they could do it, but people just wouldn't do that" is absurd - these things happen all the time. Even you can't believe that, you just parrot it because you think it lends credibility to the argument that your side isn't the extreme one. If you believe they will, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. No one will ever be held accountable for any illegal abortion because there basically will be none. The only possible accountability will be a malpractice case if there are complications that harm or kill the mother due to a botched procedure.
 
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That post was about the Democrat platform in general, before we got on the prop 3 discussion and it's indisputable that every one of those points is a part of their agenda. That's what Whitmer stands for and that's what her voters are endorsing. If you think they will support any commonsense restrictions on abortion let alone codify them into law, you're out of your mind. I stand by that comment.

As it relates to Prop 3 specifically, i've said in other posts I didn't say it allows for abortion for minors without parental consent. I also never said prop 3 would allow for mutilating "gender affirming" care. Because unlike you I read Prop 3 and because I read it, I did say and have clearly demonstrated that prop 3 effectively eliminates any restrictions on abortion - this viability clause is intentionally vague and provides an easy work-around for late term abortions. That's is also indisputable.

And the parental consent law already has a workaround for minors who want an abortion without parental consent. All they have to do is find profit hungry doctor and a friendly liberal judge - probably not too hard to do in Michigan as it becomes more of a leftist shithole.

All of that is fact.

So you were just lying about the democratic platform. Sure thing.

And minors have always been able to get court orders if say they get pregnant from being raped by their father.
 
Thank you for highlighting the problems with prop 3 - specifically, the state would have little to no say in when to apply restrictions to abortions. Kuykendall's arguments that the state could pass laws that restrict who could perform abortions or make judgements about the physical or mental well-being, are garbage because that will never happen. The fact that they could do it is irrelevant because again, you can't name a single Dem politician who will even answer the question about whether or not they support any restrictions on abortion.

Her entire argument is "technically they could do it, but people just wouldn't do that" is absurd - these things happen all the time. Even you can't believe that, you just parrot it because you think it lends credibility to the argument that your side isn't the extreme one. If you believe they will, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. No one will ever be held accountable for any illegal abortion because there basically will be none. The only possible accountability will be a malpractice case if there are complications that harm or kill the mother due to a botched procedure.

Roe v Wade was the law of the land for 50 years and is not extreme. Michigan now has the same laws in place they had under Roe v Wade, and like then any grey areas get sorted out in court.

Relying on hypotheticals to make your case is a losing argument because every single one of those hypotheticals was possible before Roe v Wade was overturned.
 
Roe v Wade was the law of the land for 50 years and is not extreme. Michigan now has the same laws in place they had under Roe v Wade, and like then any grey areas get sorted out in court.

Relying on hypotheticals to make your case is a losing argument because every single one of those hypotheticals was possible before Roe v Wade was overturned.

No, they don't have the same law they had under Roe. That's what you're not grasping. I'm not relying on hypotheticals - I'm telling you what the law says, you're simply refusing to understand it. By the way, one of the pieces you posted said these "hypotheticals" as you call them, happen in 6% of abortions. you sure you know what hypothetical means?

Your MSU law professor's arguments are purely hypothetical - "the state COULD write a law that does this" or "they COULD write a law that restricts that" or "'xyz' would never happen because it's too extreme" even though it does already happen and there is no will on the Dems part to restrict it from happening... As it stands, there are virtually no restrictions on abortion in Michigan other than parental consent for minors, but even that is conditional. They leave in place the viability law but then they override it with a blanket exception that anyone can claim.

It's kinda like the perverted sex education curriculum in New Jersey - the state allowed districts to vote on it but then said any district that votes it down loses part of their state funding. It's an illusion and you're falling for it hook, line and sinker.
 
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