Avila and Passed Balls/Wild Pitches

[tigersofjustice]

Let me just say that I like Avila. It is nice to have a catcher that can contribute offensively and catch a decent game and throw out a runner or two.

However, Avila might be one of the worst catchers I've ever seen when it comes to letting the ball get to the backstop. That winning run from the Yankees in the first game he basically just missed with his glove.

Not surprisingly he is last in the league in PB + WP. I count them together because generally these scorekeepers do a horrible job awarding one vs the other. Not surprisingly he finished only behind Miguel Olivo and JP Arencibia in the category in 2011.

In addition, I don't think I've ever seen him actually catch a one hop ball thrown to home for a play at the plate.

He's nice to have overall but my god, seeing balls hit the backstop as often as they do with him is amazingly frustrating.

 

[tomdalton22]

I don't remember him being this bad last year......but he has been pretty bad this year. It's probably more obvious due to the game situations when those things have happened.

 

[lonesometiger]

Liard caught Sunday's game. I watched the Sunday game on TBS. Scherzer was all over the place catching him was like catching a shotgun. Shoot fire Putkonen was not much better. Nine walks was the bigger problem. Control of the pitch zone is the pitchers job. But one thing I did notice of Laird was he did not give a target for the pitcher. Do not known that is what AA is doing as well? When I was catching I was taught to give the pitcher a target. Anyway Sunday's game was no control problem!

 

[bassburns]

Avila has had 2 PB in 17 games this year, he had 7 in 133 games last year, so right now he's on pace for 16 in 133 games. I would say it's just a small sample size that he just had some bad hops early in the year. I'm quite confident that will even out over the course of the season.

The man still throws out 30% of runners which is just fine by me considering he can take a walk and show some power.

G $ is a defensive FIRST player, Alex isn't that type of player, your going to give a little to get more hitting.

Alex for President!

 

[tigersofjustice]

Avila has had 2 PB in 17 games this year, he had 7 in 133 games last year, so right now he's on pace for 16 in 133 games. I would say it's just a small sample size that he just had some bad hops early in the year. I'm quite confident that will even out over the course of the season.

The man still throws out 30% of runners which is just fine by me considering he can take a walk and show some power.

G $ is a defensive FIRST player, Alex isn't that type of player, your going to give a little to get more hitting.

Alex for President!

You have to look at both PB and Wild Pitches. If you look you'll notice that WP are awarded at almost a 5 to 1 rate. You'll also notice that many of the players with a high amount of BP have a ton more wild pitches than other guys in the league. Coincidence? No.

Are some of the WP actually the pitchers fault? Of course. However, the catchers get a lot of deference with that stat.

Here is a perfect example, Carlos Ruiz had 8 passed balls last season. He only had 13 wild pitches in 128 games. That's a total of 21 balls that got by him. Avila only had 7 passed balls but had 56 wild pitches under his watch. Do you really think that is a coincidence?

 

[byco42]

Ruiz is fortunate to catch starters whose worst bb/9 was 2.1.
That figure was close to the Tigers' best last season.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Ruiz is fortunate to catch starters whose worst bb/9 was 2.1.
That figure was close to the Tigers' best last season.

Come on. First, you just picked out starters, instantly wrong because catchers catch everybody who comes in. Second, you're using that to explain a difference of 40 WP which doesn't even make sense. Third, the Phillies total BB rate was 6.7% compared to 8.1% per plate appearance. A 1.4% difference or about 25+ walks in 1,000 innings and you think that explains a difference of 40 WP?

The explanation is simple, Ruiz is good at blocking balls, Avila is not.

 

[Mitchrapp]

You have to look at both PB and Wild Pitches. If you look you'll notice that WP are awarded at almost a 5 to 1 rate. You'll also notice that many of the players with a high amount of BP have a ton more wild pitches than other guys in the league. Coincidence? No.

Are some of the WP actually the pitchers fault? Of course. However, the catchers get a lot of deference with that stat.

Here is a perfect example, Carlos Ruiz had 8 passed balls last season. He only had 13 wild pitches in 128 games. That's a total of 21 balls that got by him. Avila only had 7 passed balls but had 56 wild pitches under his watch. Do you really think that is a coincidence?

So now its Alex fault the pitcher threw a fastball over his head or a slider in the dirt a foot inside? I'm surprised he stops as many as he does. Not like our pitching staff has good control. Unless you post all 56 of those WP, you're talking non-sense.

 

[Mitchrapp]

And a walk on one team is not the same for another. 4 barely missing the strike zone is different that 3 in the dirt and 1 8 feet inside.

 

[Rebbiv]

WPs per 200 IP (career)

Kendrick 1.96
Oswalt 2.41
Hamels 2.86
Stutes 2.96
Blnaton 3.47
Worley 3.53
Halladay 3.89
C. Lee 4.33
Herndon 6.84
Bastardo 7.74
Madson 10.16

Fister 5.31
Penny 5.34
Benoit 7.48
Verlander 8.28
Scherzer 8.42
Valverde 8.66
Porcello 10.79
Coke 13.23
Alburquerque 18.46
Schlereth 25.81

Ruiz has not caught Halladay, C. Lee, Blanton nor Oswalt their entire career. So it isn't necessarily Ruiz. Same too, Avila has not caught Verlander his entire career. So, it is a difference in pitching staffs as much as it is anything else.


And yes, walk to strike out ratios indicate control. Control pitchers do not have as many wild pitches. Greg Maddux averaged 2.80. Jamie Moyer averages 2.82.

 

[gotime909]

I'm shocked he hasn't broken his bare hand yet.

 

[byco42]

Hardball Times agrees that Avila is a below-average blocker of the ball.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Hardball Times agrees that Avila is a below-average blocker of the ball.

Yeah because Hardball Times is the bestestest :nuts:

 

[tigersofjustice]

WPs per 200 IP (career)

Kendrick 1.96
Oswalt 2.41
Hamels 2.86
Stutes 2.96
Blnaton 3.47
Worley 3.53
Halladay 3.89
C. Lee 4.33
Herndon 6.84
Bastardo 7.74
Madson 10.16

Fister 5.31
Penny 5.34
Benoit 7.48
Verlander 8.28
Scherzer 8.42
Valverde 8.66
Porcello 10.79
Coke 13.23
Alburquerque 18.46
Schlereth 25.81

Ruiz has not caught Halladay, C. Lee, Blanton nor Oswalt their entire career. So it isn't necessarily Ruiz. Same too, Avila has not caught Verlander his entire career. So, it is a difference in pitching staffs as much as it is anything else.


And yes, walk to strike out ratios indicate control. Control pitchers do not have as many wild pitches. Greg Maddux averaged 2.80. Jamie Moyer averages 2.82.

I don't know why people are focusing on Ruiz, he's just an example, there are plenty of others who limited WP better than Avila. Furthermore, the continued use of WP difference of a pitching staff to account for a 5:1 discrepancy is ludicrous to say the least. Even an eyeball of your rate stats can't explain it.

Even in this simple bubble analysis that doesn't really show anything by itself, you use rate states and ignore innings pitched, ignore the innings in which they were pitching to the catchers specified, ignore the catchers used themselves, ect. All this does is to point out a possible explanation of SOME of the difference with no tangible determination of how much of the difference is accounted for without any additional support.

 

[Rebbiv]

Hardball Times agrees that Avila is a below-average blocker of the ball.

And yet, in the same article, Avila was rated the #1 catcher in 2011. I will take that all day long.

 

[byco42]

I'm merely passing on information, people. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm merely passing on information, people. Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm just in one those moods today.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Alright, Ruiz has 101 WP in over 600 games in the majors. He's consistently been around or under 20 per season. Can we please drop this "but it could be the pitching staff?!?!" stuff? That's 3 season of no Halladay, Oswalt, ect. It's not the pitching staff.

 

[byco42]

I point to a player like Jarrod Saltalamacchia to make the OPs point. 26 PB and 41 WP in 2011. Or will he site Wakefield as the reason?

 

[Rebbiv]

I don't know why people are focusing on Ruiz, he's just an example, there are plenty of others who limited WP better than Avila. Furthermore, the continued use of WP difference of a pitching staff to account for a 5:1 discrepancy is ludicrous to say the least. Even an eyeball of your rate stats can't explain it.

Even in this simple bubble analysis that doesn't really show anything by itself, you use rate states and ignore innings pitched, ignore the innings in which they were pitching to the catchers specified, ignore the catchers used themselves, ect. All this does is to point out a possible explanation of SOME of the difference with no tangible determination of how much of the difference is accounted for without any additional support.

First, your are the one that brought up Ruiz.

Second, I took career Wild Pitches and normalized them at 200 IP. What don't you get? The fact that Verlander averages 8.28 per 200 IP for his career versus Cliff Lee at 4.33. Verlander has thrown to more catchers than Avila in his career and Lee has thrown to more catchers than Ruiz.

In 2007, Verlander had 17 WP with Pudge as the primary catcher.


DET (PB/WP)

2012 2/10 (5.00)
2011 8/69 (8.63)
2010 11/75 (6.82)
2009 15/48 (3.20)
2008 16/65 (4.06)
2007 10/75 (7.50)

NYY (PB/WP

2012 1/10 (10.00)
2011 7/67 (9.57)
2010 12/69 (5.75)
2009 11/66 (6.00)
2008 11/55 (5.00)
2007 16/59 (3.69)

AL (PB/WP)

2012 24/109 (4.54)
2011 148/776 (5.24)
2010 141/835 (5.92) (8.26 WP per 200 IP)
2009 153/728 (4.76)
2008 152/751 (4.94)
2007 160/754 (4.71)

Avila Career 19/111 (5.84) (10.02 WP per 200 IP)

Laird last 4 years 17/77 (4.53) (7.60 WP per 200 IP)