Caldwell to Return

[cheeno]

Still no names eh? Exactly what i thought

They would be all completely hypothetical. We do that when we there is plenty to debate On what actually happened. The status quo, which looks like to some degree was dictated by the owner who wants to keep someone they personally like. Now where have we seen that before.

 

[cheeno]

Good move by Quinn. I mean, at the end of the day he did a pretty good job with this team and most of the guys that got HC positions will be fired within a couple of years. Gase will be the first to get axed. I think Caldwell learned his lesson about running the offense, he was too loyal to Lombardi and it bit him.

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Jdeb you are a true Lions fan. A week ago you were cursing the team to the depths of hades and now your locked and loaded for another season incrementally raising expectations until the first loss. Bless you.

 

[grandy]

But see, that's my point man. It's easy to say soft schedule, Lombardi got canned, Cooter was hired, or any other excuse.

But none of us have any clue what was happening behind the scenes. None of us know whether or not Mayhew was adamant on keeping Lombardi, or was 100% against promoting Cooter.

We simply don't have a clue.

What we do know is that an owner, who got deeply involved (for once) found it necessary to fire the GM and that same owner backed the coach all the way. And once that happened, we won 6 out of 8 games.

I'm not defending Caldwell here. I'm simply saying that as fans we have no idea what precipitated the moves that were made, and we're trying to fit the facts to the evidence instead of the other way around.

There's no way of knowing so it's pointless to speculate.

We know the 1st half was tough and they lost a lot, we know the 2nd half was easier and they won a lot.

I see scheduling as the biggest factor in the 'turnaround'. Did personnel changes help? Who knows, I'm not willing to fully admit the changes worked when other factors were also in their favor.

I think coaching is overvalued in most sports, including football. Talent/endurance/effort/execution typically matter much more IMO, so I don't put much stock in coaching changes anyway. If this is a move to keep talent (CJ) around and the locker room together, then it's probably the right decision.

For what it's worth, I would've been fine with a total rebuild. I'm not a big fan of patch jobs and retooling when the opportunity to start fresh is there. I don't think this current team is capable of winning a championship and I also don't think they have a young core in place (yet) to build a championship team...too many high picks not named Ansah have not had a huge impact. I think this moves buys them immediate (and minor) success, but will ultimately not make a difference 5 years down the road. Whether they kept Caldwell or hired a new HC, I think Quinn has the same job ahead of him. I see a temporary boost to 2016, with little regard for the following seasons, which makes sense for 90+ year old owner.


That post was probably all over the place.

TLDR: Caldwell good for 2016, irrelevant past that

 

[tonyballs]

Bullshit calls happen to teams a half dozen times a game (it seems like twice as many at key times to the Lions). Good teams and good coaching overcome those penalties.

Who cares about other teams? The call was garbage

 

[tonyballs]

They would be all completely hypothetical. We do that when we there is plenty to debate On what actually happened. The status quo, which looks like to some degree was dictated by the owner who wants to keep someone they personally like. Now where have we seen that before.

And you still can't come up with any names lol. And figures that you'd be one of the first guys to basically call Quinn a YES man. Surprised it took this long lol

 

[SoCalLions]

There's no way of knowing so it's pointless to speculate.

We know the 1st half was tough and they lost a lot, we know the 2nd half was easier and they won a lot.

I see scheduling as the biggest factor in the 'turnaround'. Did personnel changes help? Who knows, I'm not willing to fully admit the changes worked when other factors were also in their favor.

I think coaching is overvalued in most sports, including football. Talent/endurance/effort/execution typically matter much more IMO, so I don't put much stock in coaching changes anyway. If this is a move to keep talent (CJ) around and the locker room together, then it's probably the right decision.

For what it's worth, I would've been fine with a total rebuild. I'm not a big fan of patch jobs and retooling when the opportunity to start fresh is there. I don't think this current team is capable of winning a championship and I also don't think they have a young core in place (yet) to build a championship team...too many high picks not named Ansah have not had a huge impact. I think this moves buys them immediate (and minor) success, but will ultimately not make a difference 5 years down the road. Whether they kept Caldwell or hired a new HC, I think Quinn has the same job ahead of him. I see a temporary boost to 2016, with little regard for the following seasons, which makes sense for 90+ year old owner.


That post was probably all over the place.

TLDR: Caldwell good for 2016, irrelevant past that

While I disagree with the importance of coaching, but I do like your point about talent/effort/execution/etc. I'd also like to throw in chemistry.

Here's an excerpt from an article written by Eben Britton, Former Jags, Bears OL

"Somewhere else, there?s a team or two on top of the world. This year it?s the Carolina Panthers flying sky high; unbeaten on the rocket right arm of Cam Newton. There?s an incalculable formula to winning football games. Every team needs a quarterback that can play, of course, but in the NFL, every guy on every team at every position was the best player at his college. When parity takes the talent out of the equation, what?s left?
The difference is chemistry. Does everyone like coming to work? Do they like being together? It?s HR gospel that better workplace relationships make for a better, more productive environment. In our world, that means wins. And wins mean survival."

Here's the article:
https://thecauldron.si.com/in-the-nfl-december-is-anything-but-merry-75326adb179d#.pc554jeij

and here's another by him if anyone's interested:
https://thecauldron.si.com/what-doe...ou-don-t-want-to-know-21c6665cab00#.rwonmf527

As stupid as the decisions Caldwell makes, he seems to bring about a family element to his team. About the only compliment I can give him.

 

[brewer229]

Thank god for no Josh McDaniels.

Now hopefully my feeling about Calvin staying if Caldwell does comes true.

 

[cheeno]

Grandy I agree with you undervaluing the impact of coaching in other sports but I think the NFL is a different story. You know that line from the movie Rounders where Worm says, "why do you think the same guys end up at the final table each year at the WSOP, luck?" Football at the professional level is like Hold'em. The cards matter, the cards matter a lot and some coaches definitely have been dealt better cards than others. However there is a reason we see a lot of the same coaches on the sideline each playoff season despite injuries (even to their quarterback) year in and year out. When two teams are evenly matched (like this years NC) coaching can make all the difference. When one teams talent is slightly worse a better game plan and in game adjustments can make all the difference. In no other sport does a coach have the direct connection to the game that they do have in Football.

This really has no bearing on this discussion but as an aside I disagree in the specific instance of Football.

My thoughts on this development is completely in agreement with your assessment though Grandy. Is this team ready to bring in Larry Brown to elevate them to a championship? No. That is going to take some time and some good moves from Quinn. So yes for 2016 Caldwell is (probably not a bad) lateral move. I am an Austin guy. If you look at the final stretch the defense as much or more than the offense responded. One example is the Raiders game. We held a red hot offensive team to 12 points, we scored 18. This was a Cooter game, and it really wasn't exactly a shoot out. I am really happy that we get to keep Austin another year. I think the development of young players like Ansah, Slay, Quddus, Whitehead, etc. all stem from Austin's tutelage. I think he is a coach that can make adjustments in game for the better. I think someone is going to get a heck of a HC in him someday. Elrod gave me a it of a boost when he rightly pointed out that if things go downhill early, we may get to see that happen on our sidelines.

 

[zyxt9]

I would say this is unbelievable, but there it is.

So here is how this plays out, and feel free to throw it back at me if I'm wrong.

2016 - 10+ wins, enough wins to make playoffs, lose in first game of playoffs
2017 - less than 10 wins (because Lions have never won 10 games 2 straight years)

It seems we will be without a different head coach until 2018. By then CJ will have retired and Lions will have wasted his talents like they did Barry's.

While I will pull for the Lions, I will NEVER give Caldwell an ounce of respect. If the team wins, it will be in spite of Caldwell, not because of him.

 

[cheeno]

Thank god for no Josh McDaniels.

Now hopefully my feeling about Calvin staying if Caldwell does comes true.

The fact that Quinn had the opportunity to hire him tells me one of three things:

1. He privately knows McDaniels doesn't want the job.
2. Ownership made it clear in his hire that they strongly want Caldwell for at least another year.
3. McDaniels really is an asshole who hasn't matured since his last stint and was never in contention anyways.

 

[cheeno]

I would say this is unbelievable, but there it is.

So here is how this plays out, and feel free to throw it back at me if I'm wrong.

2016 - 10+ wins, enough wins to make playoffs, lose in first game of playoffs
2017 - less than 10 wins (because Lions have never won 10 games 2 straight years)

It seems we will be without a different head coach until 2018. By then CJ will have retired and Lions will have wasted his talents like they did Barry's.

While I will pull for the Lions, I will NEVER give Caldwell an ounce of respect. If the team wins, it will be in spite of Caldwell, not because of him.

That sure seems like the trajectory. The only thing altering that would be a collapse next year or Quinn pulling the trigger on Caldwell after a playoff appearance.

 

[grandy]

Grandy I agree with you undervaluing the impact of coaching in other sports but I think the NFL is a different story. You know that line from the movie Rounders where Worm says, "why do you think the same guys end up at the final table each year at the WSOP, luck?" Football at the professional level is like Hold'em. The cards matter, the cards matter a lot and some coaches definitely have been dealt better cards than others. However there is a reason we see a lot of the same coaches on the sideline each playoff season despite injuries (even to their quarterback) year in and year out. When two teams are evenly matched (like this years NC) coaching can make all the difference. When one teams talent is slightly worse a better game plan and in game adjustments can make all the difference. In no other sport does a coach have the direct connection to the game that they do have in Football.

Perhaps I should clarify, I think the head coach is overvalued in some situations. The staff he builds is still very important to the game. I guess it really depends on the HC's duties, if he sits back and lets everyone else do their job (like I think Caldwell does), then he's not that important to the success or failure of the team. Highly controlling HCs can make a much bigger difference. There's a reason coaching staffs in the NFL are made up of dozens of people, there's simply too much for a few people to handle, and some HCs are closer to figure heads than others.

I just think organizational quality, top-to-bottom, is more important than any one man. Put Caldwell on the Patriots, they probably still make the playoffs every year, put Belichick on the Jaguars, they probably finish near the bottom half most years. If there isn't much to work with, chances of success will still be pretty low. Like you said, it matters more in high level equal talent situations.

I don't think Caldwell/Austin/McDaniels/etc. will be the difference between this team being successful 3 years down the road or not, that's entirely on Quinn.

 

[johnny2x2x]

If someone could give me a name to replace Stafford and Caldwell then problem solved? But nobody can, so......

This is a losing mentality. We have the wrong coach, but because I can't think of another coach right now I'll keep doing the wrong thing. When what you're doing isn't working, you stop doing it, period.

Stafford could be a winning QB here, you keep him.

 

[mhughes0021]

I wonder if anyone has really examined the possibility that the second half turnaround of this team was more due in part to Mayhew's exist and Caldwell's coaching than Cooters?

The reality is (and I am sure the angry people will be here any moment to throw their hands over their ears and yell "NUH UH" repeatedly, so this is for the less emotional more intelligent folks) we have no idea what was happening behind the scenes.

In the second half, some minute adjustments were made, but they were impactful. Ihedigbo sat down behind Quddus. We stopped running the ball as much and went back to throwing the ball. Stafford free-wheeled a lot more. We saw some different receivers get into the mix. Changes on the O-Line. Etc...

No one can really be sure that Mayhew wasn't telling Caldwell which players he was damned well going to play because of contracts, the balance he wanted, etc...

Now, I am in no way trying to make excuses for anything that was done. I don't really care who was at fault last season... the first half completely sucked. Blame everyone for all I care.

But I often find it interesting that fans with the absolute LEAST access to any knowledge at all, think that can tell you who is to blame for every problem, and who should be hired and fired to correct it.

If even ONE person on this board was half as smart as they think they are with this stuff, they would be our team president, and we'd have won 8 superbowls in the last 5 years.

ya...adjustments were made....we played a bunch of shitty non playoff teams. Hes been here for over 2 years...he didn't all of a sudden start doing things different unless youre referring to canning half of the shitty team he put together in the first place.

I was going to be fine with Caldwell back as long as Austin and cooter are here....and calvin comes back. If those coordinators leave then this move makes no sense whatsoever. I would hope we had those talk prior to this announcement.

 

[sggatecl]

After reading this board for the last week I'm convinced Quinn was going to get flamed here no matter what the decision. Some of the same people that were soooo certain and angry that McDaniels was the guy are now soooo angry that Caldwell is staying.

For a group of people that always shit on Mike Valenti for how he always 'hates' on the Lions, you all sound a lot like him.

 

[biggunsbob]

I doesn't matter who the coach is next year. Alvin and his brother chipmunk's should be able to coach a NFL team to the playoffs with the Lions 2016 schedule. If Caldwell Wins he stays. If he doesn't he gets canned.. Quinn is in a no lose situation. If the Lions fail he gets canned ,and he takes no blame. If we win he is lauded as a genius who listen to his 90 year old owner and kept Caldwell.

This move is about getting Calvin Johnson to stay another year I think..

 

[zyxt9]

After reading this board for the last week I'm convinced Quinn was going to get flamed here no matter what the decision. Some of the same people that were soooo certain and angry that McDaniels was the guy are now soooo angry that Caldwell is staying.

For a group of people that always shit on Mike Valenti for how he always 'hates' on the Lions, you all sound a lot like him.

Valenti is a non-Lions fan. His name should NEVER be mentioned in any DSF thread again.

I personally never thought McDaniels was the right guy, and many others named several other people they wanted over McDaniels.

That said, I would MUCH rather have McDaniels than Caldwell...though I do not think the overall results would be drastically different. I just want Caldwell gone, and no amount of Super Bowl victories he could bring to Detroit will ever change my feelings and opinions about that.

In fact, I'd rather have a blind and deaf monkey throw feces at a wall with labels for what plays to call over having Caldwell.

 

[grandy]

Quinn is off the hook anyway since the 2016 team will probably be 80% Mayhew leftovers. Sort of a parting gift for the new GM.

 

[cheeno]

In fact, I'd rather have a blind and deaf monkey throw feces at a wall with labels for what plays to call.

That would have been an upgrade over Lombardi and way more entertaining to watch.

 

[mhughes0021]

Grandy I agree with you undervaluing the impact of coaching in other sports but I think the NFL is a different story. You know that line from the movie Rounders where Worm says, "why do you think the same guys end up at the final table each year at the WSOP, luck?" Football at the professional level is like Hold'em. The cards matter, the cards matter a lot and some coaches definitely have been dealt better cards than others. However there is a reason we see a lot of the same coaches on the sideline each playoff season despite injuries (even to their quarterback) year in and year out. When two teams are evenly matched (like this years NC) coaching can make all the difference. When one teams talent is slightly worse a better game plan and in game adjustments can make all the difference. In no other sport does a coach have the direct connection to the game that they do have in Football.

This really has no bearing on this discussion but as an aside I disagree in the specific instance of Football.

My thoughts on this development is completely in agreement with your assessment though Grandy. Is this team ready to bring in Larry Brown to elevate them to a championship? No. That is going to take some time and some good moves from Quinn. So yes for 2016 Caldwell is (probably not a bad) lateral move. I am an Austin guy. If you look at the final stretch the defense as much or more than the offense responded. One example is the Raiders game. We held a red hot offensive team to 12 points, we scored 18. This was a Cooter game, and it really wasn't exactly a shoot out. I am really happy that we get to keep Austin another year. I think the development of young players like Ansah, Slay, Quddus, Whitehead, etc. all stem from Austin's tutelage. I think he is a coach that can make adjustments in game for the better. I think someone is going to get a heck of a HC in him someday. Elrod gave me a it of a boost when he rightly pointed out that if things go downhill early, we may get to see that happen on our sidelines.

Coach needs to know how to put a team in place and manage it. Caldwell got a majority of his staff canned by year 2. So ya...hes no good at that. Theres a small light at the end of the tunnel with Austin/cooter....but were judging that based off a small sample size vs garbage competition.

Coach needs to manage the game. We all know hes no good at that.

Team needs to have the coaches back. From reports this is caldwells strongest attribute....not entirely sure why....but it seems to be working.

Coach needs to work well with upper mgmt. Sounds like Quinn and Caldwell could be compatible. Or Quinn was giving GM speak after he was told to keep Caldwell.

Those are his main duties.....it shouldn't be like college football where a lot of coaches micro manage many things. Typically the college coaches that outsource all those duties to others are the most successful. Dabo was awful at Clemson his first couple seasons and was on the verge of getting fired. Then he hired an ocord and became JUST a head coach and they've been successful ever since.

Gase probably wont be successful in Miami due to this reason....reports are he doesn't want an OC (which is good for us).