Carson Wentz

[detroit1811]

all of the stories that I read said that it was the Rams that were dangling Goff hoping to get rid of him via trade, not other teams making offers for him.

Peter Schrager
@PSchrags
?
Jan 31
I?ve spoken to multiple teams this morning who made calls TO the Rams in regards to Goff, too. This wasn?t some throw-in. The Lions wanted him. He had a market. Around NFL, Goff is regarded well. 25, multiple playoff wins, beat Brees and Wilson in their buildings in postseason.

 

[tomdalton22]

Peter Schrager
@PSchrags
?
Jan 31
I?ve spoken to multiple teams this morning who made calls TO the Rams in regards to Goff, too. This wasn?t some throw-in. The Lions wanted him. He had a market. Around NFL, Goff is regarded well. 25, multiple playoff wins, beat Brees and Wilson in their buildings in postseason.

teams making calls could be them kicking the tires to see what the Rams might throw in to take Goff and his contract.

 

[LKP]

Goff as a player adds value. 1st and a 3rd outright is better than conditional 2022 1st or 2nd and a 3rd. Plus Lions got an additional 1st rounder in 2023.

Stafford deal was way way way better

And Goff has talent too, only 26 and proved things for 2 years in this league

 

[tomdalton22]

who has a better career going forward (numbers wise) including counting numbers (total yards, TDs, Etc.)?

Goff
Wentz
Matt

I think there are huge questions with Goff and Wentz but I think both have more upside than Matt due to age.

 

[LKP]

who has a better career going forward (numbers wise) including counting numbers (total yards, TDs, Etc.)?

Goff
Wentz
Matt

I think there are huge questions with Goff and Wentz but I think both have more upside than Matt due to age.

Stafford for the next 3-4 years but only 2 years left on deal. Stafford has 4 years at least for sucesss, maybe 5-6 age wise. Goff 4 years left on his deal if kept the entire time with successs. Wentz 4 years left too with Colts

 

[detroit1811]

teams making calls could be them kicking the tires to see what the Rams might throw in to take Goff and his contract.

It literally says he had a market, is well regarded around the league, and multiple teams wanted him.

 

[tomdalton22]

It literally says he had a market, is well regarded around the league, and multiple teams wanted him.

No, it said he had a market...nothing about multiple teams wanting him.

It has been reported that Blake Griffin has a market as well. Teams are inquiring. Guess what...those teams are probably also asking the Pistons to send picks in order to take him on.

Having a market can mean a lot of different things.

 

[LKP]

We got two 1sts and a 3rd and Goff has a chance to be 100 QB rating QB eventually, if not we cut him.

It's a great deal and better than Wentzs. Who is much younger by the way but also injury prone too.

Now start building. Can't wait. Let's see if Holmes can be good on day 2 and 3 and FA too. And if coaching staff can make the most out of players or not

 

[detroit1811]

who has a better career going forward (numbers wise) including counting numbers (total yards, TDs, Etc.)?

Goff
Wentz
Matt

I think there are huge questions with Goff and Wentz but I think both have more upside than Matt due to age.

Numbers wise is definitely Stafford. Stafford is going to a place where the coach loves to throw. Goff is going somewhere they will probably emphasize the run a good deal more.

Still even disregarding the numbers, I think Stafford plays better because he is the better QB.

 

[detroit1811]

No, it said he had a market...nothing about multiple teams wanting him.

It has been reported that Blake Griffin has a market as well. Teams are inquiring. Guess what...those teams are probably also asking the Pistons to send picks in order to take him on.

Having a market can mean a lot of different things.

Its obviously not worth arguing, not going to get anywhere. You originally said to your knowledge no teams called the Rams about Goff. When I showed you they did now you say well doesn't mean they weren't trying to give Rams picks for him.

Thinking logically, If Wentz can get a 3rd and conditional 2nd with a similar contract, and both having both really good and bad years, Goff should get at least the same. But in your mind Rams would have had to give a team picks to take on that contract.

 

[mhughes0021]

I didn't keep arguing on because it wasn't worth it, but your point makes no sense. The Rams had other offers for Goff. Why would they have to sweeten the deal just to unload him when they could've just traded him somewhere else? Indy is giving up draft capital AND taking on Wentz contract.

Its just not accurate. They wanted Stafford and they couldnt complete a Stafford deal without unloading Goffs contract or else they would pay 2 QBs close to $100 million lol. So lets be realistic about what youre saying and see if you still believe yourself after you break it down. So you (and LKP) is saying no....there was no "sweetening of the pot" because GOff had a market and a ton of value that they were going to get from these MYSTERIOUS teams no one has ever heard about (sounds like a smokescreen if i ever heard of one). So lets take that at fact value and assume it was real (it wasnt). That would mean you REALISTICALLY think stafford market was worth MORE than a 3rd this year and (2) future firsts?

Multiple offers have come out since then and they were all right around the same value....2 current year picks, 1 being a 1st round and 1 being a mid round. The fact we got more than that plus Goff makes you jump to the conclusion that what?...Holmes is just some mastermind that got a sweet deal? No dude...the pot was sweetened for a salary dump and there was no market for Goff. If there was the Rams clearly would have just did what you said....trade Goff to a different team and get the assets then trade for Stafford.

 

[tomdalton22]

Its obviously not worth arguing, not going to get anywhere. You originally said to your knowledge no teams called the Rams about Goff. When I showed you they did now you say well doesn't mean they weren't trying to give Rams picks for him.

Thinking logically, If Wentz can get a 3rd and conditional 2nd with a similar contract, and both having both really good and bad years, Goff should get at least the same. But in your mind Rams would have had to give a team picks to take on that contract.

So in your mind, Goff = Wentz.

Goff = 3rd and 2nd (or 1st if conditions are met)

I guess you feel if the Rams didn't send Goff in the trade, the Lions could have gotten two future first round picks, two 2021 thirds and a conditional (1st or 2nd) for Matt? That sounds like a good deal. All those picks and an additional $27M in cap space for 2021.

 

[detroit1811]

Its just not accurate. They wanted Stafford and they couldnt complete a Stafford deal without unloading Goffs contract or else they would pay 2 QBs close to $100 million lol. So lets be realistic about what youre saying and see if you still believe yourself after you break it down. So you (and LKP) is saying no....there was no "sweetening of the pot" because GOff had a market and a ton of value that they were going to get from these MYSTERIOUS teams no one has ever heard about (sounds like a smokescreen if i ever heard of one). So lets take that at fact value and assume it was real (it wasnt). That would mean you REALISTICALLY think stafford market was worth MORE than a 3rd this year and (2) future firsts?

Multiple offers have come out since then and they were all right around the same value....2 current year picks, 1 being a 1st round and 1 being a mid round. The fact we got more than that plus Goff makes you jump to the conclusion that what?...Holmes is just some mastermind that got a sweet deal? No dude...the pot was sweetened for a salary dump and there was no market for Goff. If there was the Rams clearly would have just did what you said....trade Goff to a different team and get the assets then trade for Stafford.

For starters, this trade is not official because it can't be done until the new league year starts. That means they could agree to the trade in principle without the salary cap implications. They had plenty of time to trade Goff. Lions wanted him, that is why he came here, not because they needed someone to take on the salary.

Please explain to me why Carson Wentz, who has a contract even worse then Goff's is worth a 3rd and conditional 2nd? Your argument that Indy didn't have a a high salary dump QB makes no sense. Eagles desperately needed to get rid of Wentz. He has been rumored to be cancerous in the locker room. Even with all that the Eagles STILL got decent value for a QB who hasn't been good since 2018, and was downright awful in 2020.

The reason is because QB holds more value then any other position. Same reason why the Eagles got a 1st+ for Sam Bradford.

 

[detroit1811]

So in your mind, Goff = Wentz.

Goff = 3rd and 2nd (or 1st if conditions are met)

I guess you feel if the Rams didn't send Goff in the trade, the Lions could have gotten two future first round picks, two 2021 thirds and a conditional (1st or 2nd) for Matt? That sounds like a good deal. All those picks and an additional $27M in cap space for 2021.

That is an excellent deal. Obviously the Rams would not have the assets to offer that. I also believe the Lions value Goff as worth more then that draft capital at this point.

Regardless you explain to me why if Wentz can get traded for what he did in a very similar situation, why that is unrealistic for Goff?

 

[tomdalton22]

Please explain to me why Carson Wentz, who has a contract even worse then Goff's is worth a 3rd and conditional 2nd?

actually, Goff's is worse than Wentz's.

Wentz is only owed $25.4M (out after 2021) which is his cap hit next year.
Goff is owed $43.3M (out after 2022) with a $27.8M cap hit next year.

 

[mhughes0021]

That is an excellent deal. Obviously the Rams would not have the assets to offer that. I also believe the Lions value Goff as worth more then that draft capital at this point.

Regardless you explain to me why if Wentz can get traded for what he did in a very similar situation, why that is unrealistic for Goff?

I asked you first lol. Why did the lions get from the Rams more than stafford was worth according to any other team? Answer that please lol....

 

[detroit1811]

actually, Goff's is worse than Wentz's.

Wentz is only owed $25.4M (out after 2021) which is his cap hit next year.
Goff is owed $43.3M (out after 2022) with a $27.8M cap hit next year.

Cap hits

Wentz

2021 25mil
2022 22mil
2023 25mil
2024 26mil

Goff

2021 28mil
2022 25mil
2023 25mil
2024 26mil

Goff is owed 6mil more then Wentz over the course of 4 years. Goff and Wentz guarantees mean nothing this year as both were acquired to be on the roster in 2021. The only significant difference, which you are correct, is Wentz has an out for 0 dead cap in 2022. Goff would require a 15.5mil dead cap hit if cut in 2022. He has an ourt after 2023.

If you really think 15.5mil in potential dead money in 2022 is the reason why the Rams threw in an extra first for Goff, but Wentz is worth a 3rd and 2nd with a potential to be a 1st thats nuts.

 

[detroit1811]

I asked you first lol. Why did the lions get from the Rams more than stafford was worth according to any other team? Answer that please lol....

Because they were giving up future assets. Like mentioned before a future first is at best worth the 32nd pick in the draft. For arguments sake lets reference the trade chart.

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp

That pick is worth 590 points. So even assuming that the pick two years from now is still worth the same that is 1180 points, Carolina's pick is worth 1400 points. The 3rd the Rams threw in is worth at additional 150 points. That puts you at 1330 points without mentioning the 5th they threw in(39 points). That is 110 points short of value which equates to a late 3rd. They had to go above the Panthers offer and throw something is that really interested Holmes which was Goff. Using Wentz as the example for value, it was like they threw in an extra conditional 2nd to put them over the top for Carolina's offer. Plus the fact that they had to wait to truly receiver the value with it being future 1st rounders.

 

[detroit1811]

Peter King went into great detail how the Rams weren't even a player Saturday afternoon. Then they sweetened the pot so they wouldn't go with Carolina's offer. Unless they considered the offer a good deal better, why go with future picks when you have an offer with immediate returns (#8 overall). The answer is because the the Rams overpaid.

 

[LKP]

Goff is value the Lions got in return too. He is a 1st round talent for a reason and has produced

McVay needed a scape goat. More than just QB play plagued the offense in 2019/2020. Loss of Cooks, Oline issues at points and run game in 2019 a problem. McVay got figured the **** out by Patricia of all people

Two 1st, 3rd and a QB with potential. That is a HAUL. And Lions don't plan on being super active in FA in 2021 which is the proper call for a rebuild through the draft now and later and then supplment in FA in 2022 or 2023

If Goff ends up good Lions and Holmes hits on all 3 picks. That would be an absolute amazing trade result for the Lions. Don't down play the 3rd either. Golladay was late 3rd, remember that