Coronainsanity

[Gulo Blue]

I won?t just because I won?t. I?m just saying no. Because no one has the right to compel me to take this experimental solution. No one.

No one has the right to make you do a lot of things you do. If you haven't done it, then nobody has made you do it.

 

[byco42]

No one has the right to make you do a lot of things you do. If you haven't done it, then nobody has made you do it.

Yet. Others are being forced to get vaccinated. Soon enough, all of us could be forced to.

 

[zyxt9]

That's not the argument. Never has been. Not in those absolute terms.

Contagiousness would be reduced if fewer people reached the contagious phase, if viral loads were less, if less contagious strains were more prevalent, if contagious people stayed contagious for a shorter period of time, or if people required a higher viral load to catch it. It's hard to know with any precision how a vaccine impacts any of these specifically with any precision because it doesn't impact all people the same and you can't readily collect data that does anything more than give you a a hint of one of these things in some limited case. You can look at aggregate data and say that some combination of these things is helping some amounts in some cases.

The difference between vaccinated people not spreading it at all, spreading it a little less, or spreading it a lot less is huge. Using wording that ignores the difference allows you to make a wrong statement sound right because it lacks proper context. Like saying seat belts don't prevent death in auto accidents therefore they are pointless.

You continue using the strawman seatbelt analogy, which does not apply.

In your own words it is impossible to know the degree to which the vax helps in any singular situation. Similarly, if someone has no symptoms but are unvaxxed, you cannot say that they are going to spread the virus.

You just stated in your own words why the mandate should not exist, yet you will deny this I'm sure.

Your mandates have done jack shit in stopping Covid in NYC. Just like the Social Distancing and Mask Mandates did a shit job in NYC the first time around.

How much proof does one need that the mandates are not accomplishing anything beyond discrimination and stoking anger between the political sides?

Not a single mandate has accomplishes a damn thing.

And of course Trump is still blasted for letting Covid into the US the first time around but Biden gets a free pass with Omicron. And no, I do not believe for a second that shutting down access to the US would have prevented Covid in either situation. The US is not New Zealand where it is easier to implement isolationism.

People just need to get over their freaking fear of Covid and death. Covid has proven time and again the ability to infect regardless of all the fear generated mandates. Hell, I know a complete germaphobe family that wears double masks and uses sanitizer 24x7, they social distance and only leave the house when absolute necessary...they all got it.

Stop the fear mongering. It's enough already. Yes, I get it... people are dying. But it is at a 2% rate. Oh, but the hospitals are overwhelmed! They cannot treat patients with "normal" issues. That is part of everyday life and death. A hurricane, earthquake, mass flood... many natural events happen that cause hospitals to be overwhelmed.

Omicron is something we should simply acknowledge, encourage, and move forward as best we can as fast as we can, and those who survive will pick things up on the other side of this whole thing. Cuz that is what we do. We get past horrific events. We pick ourselves up, support each other, and move forward.

Promoting an environment of getting through this together would gave been far more beneficial than adding to the increasing the rift in the political divide. Of course that would require great leaders in times of great peril, like Churchill and FDR. The time for arguing about which decisions were good or bad can happen after things are again "normal", but when in the thick of it everyone should be united. Instead we have had Neville Chamberlains in charge. By that, I equate both Trump and Biden to being like NC... dividers instead of unifiers.

 

[Gulo Blue]

You continue using the strawman seatbelt analogy, which does not apply.

Why doesn't it apply? It is an example of why stating things in absolute terms can yield an incorrect conclusion.

In your own words it is impossible to know the degree to which the vax helps in any singular situation. Similarly, if someone has no symptoms but are unvaxxed, you cannot say that they are going to spread the virus.

While you don't know in singular case, you can have good certainty that it helps overall with less death and suffering in a group of people.

You just stated in your own words why the mandate should not exist, yet you will deny this I'm sure.

I'm not absolutely for or against mandates. They are undesirable, sometimes the tools of overbearing authoritarians, and sometimes intelligent policies that benefit society.

[/QUOTE]Your mandates have done jack shit in stopping Covid in NYC. Just like the Social Distancing and Mask Mandates did a shit job in NYC the first time around.

How much proof does one need that the mandates are not accomplishing anything beyond discrimination and stoking anger between the political sides?

Not a single mandate has accomplishes a damn thing.[/QUOTE]

You saying it over and over doesn't make it true. I don't know where you get your info, but I don't believe a lot of it.

And of course Trump is still blasted for letting Covid into the US the first time around but Biden gets a free pass with Omicron. And no, I do not believe for a second that shutting down access to the US would have prevented Covid in either situation. The US is not New Zealand where it is easier to implement isolationism.

Trump couldn't have kept it out. That's not his biggest failure. He set the tone where half the nation didn't take it seriously and fought to try to keep others from taking it seriously.

People just need to get over their freaking fear of Covid and death.

Trying to avoid unnecessary premature death isn't the same thing as being afraid of it. Garbage rhetoric to appeal to an emotion and avoid rational precautions.

Covid has proven time and again the ability to infect regardless of all the fear generated mandates. Hell, I know a complete germaphobe family that wears double masks and uses sanitizer 24x7, they social distance and only leave the house when absolute necessary...they all got it.

Stop the fear mongering. It's enough already. Yes, I get it... people are dying. But it is at a 2% rate. Oh, but the hospitals are overwhelmed! They cannot treat patients with "normal" issues. That is part of everyday life and death. A hurricane, earthquake, mass flood... many natural events happen that cause hospitals to be overwhelmed.

Omicron is something we should simply acknowledge, encourage, and move forward as best we can as fast as we can, and those who survive will pick things up on the other side of this whole thing. Cuz that is what we do. We get past horrific events. We pick ourselves up, support each other, and move forward.

Promoting an environment of getting through this together would gave been far more beneficial than adding to the increasing the rift in the political divide. Of course that would require great leaders in times of great peril, like Churchill and FDR. The time for arguing about which decisions were good or bad can happen after things are again "normal", but when in the thick of it everyone should be united. Instead we have had Neville Chamberlains in charge. By that, I equate both Trump and Biden to being like NC... dividers instead of unifiers.

Acting like the people that wore masks and got vaccines are the ones not trying to pull together as a unified nation is remarkably blind to the truth. And the framing of data as small percentages, intentionally leaving out the huge numbers they are multiplied by, over and over again, is disingenuous - but it's also not reading the room. Who do you think you're fooling?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I mean...what's the point of saying it's a 2% rate if that means the hospitals are overwhelmed?

 

[Spartanmack]

See, I do fully understand the Pandora's Box element in all of this. If you allow the medically exempt then the entire argument for mandates comes crumbling down. That argument is, as has been proven, a false argument in the first place. This idea that vaxxed do not spread the virus is false and therefore the mandates are illegitimate.

I look forward to the Supreme Court ruling in January.

Now, if the Army vax is proven to stop spread, that is an entirely different scenario. You could then argue the points for a mandate more strongly for the Army vax, but not the others.

But with the current situation, it is a completely unlawful practice. Well, scientifically speaking it should be found unlawful.

I think a couple "conservative" justices punt on this thing and at least Roberts and either Kavanagh or Cony Barrett disappoints again.

 

[tigermud]

ADA law only goes as far as reasonable accommodations. Reasonable is a key word there.

It would be nice if this was the problem; how to deal with the small number of people that can't get the shot. That's not the problem though. It's the tons of people that are pretending they can't, wrongfully convinced themselves they can't, or just won't for political reasons.

Where do you put those that can but won?t and NOT for political reasons, rather for health and long term side effect concerns?

Should their lives be made as difficult as possible to a point where they are not allowed by edict to function in society if they refuse?

 

[Michchamp]

It's the end of 2021, or Year 2 of the Pandemic, and we're at 830,000 dead Americans, with a dramatic drop in American life expectancy. And in addition to the people dead, according to research of those who survived, almost half - i.e. millions more - still have negative health effects 6 months or more after recovery.

At this point, I don't really care what the deniers are still saying about COVID, Omicron, and vaccines & health precautions in general... I'm curious what they would have said if you could go back in time to March 1, 2020 and show them those numbers.

In theory, that number would serve as a wake up call to many of them, because - unless you're a Nazi - 800,000+ dead Americans is an unprecedented disaster. But I'm guessing they'd just stare at you, drooling, until 5-10 minutes passed, then walk away and mindlessly repeat the things they heard back then: "no worse than the flu" ... "don't let the cure be worse than the disease" ... "everyone's going to get it anyway"... "only 1% who get it die" ... with no understanding that 1% of the population of the US was still 3.3 MILLION people, and regardless the 1% number was based on the # of cases not overwhelming the health care system so that everyone who needed treatment and medicine to survive could get it.

 

[tigermud]

Yet. Others are being forced to get vaccinated. Soon enough, all of us could be forced to.

Technically nobody is being forced, rather they just want you to be homeless on the streets and OD on fentanyl if you don?t comply. A chicom like post reset system much prefers the subservient

 

[zyxt9]

No one has the right to make you do a lot of things you do. If you haven't done it, then nobody has made you do it.

Mandates compel people into doing something they would otherwise not do freely. It also causes people who would do it freely to instead resist. The stricter the mandate and greater the reduction of freedom, the greater the resistance.

There is no reason to mandate the vaccine. None. Many resisted wearing masks, but the vast majority still did because it was inconvenient yet not something injected into the body.

A vaccine must always be a personal choice because it is injected into a person.

That is the difference between this and the seatbelt, and why your seatbelt analogy becomes a strawman argument. The seatbelt is worn, like the mask is worn.

 

[Michchamp]

Technically nobody is being forced, rather they just want you to be homeless on the streets and OD on fentanyl if you don?t comply. A chicom like post reset system much prefers the subservient

in a way, that's consistent with your "let people die, survival of the fittest" mantra.

I guess it's only bad if people die if they're anti-vaxx, drug addicts?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Mandates compel people into doing something they would otherwise not do freely. It also causes people who would do it freely to instead resist. The stricter the mandate and greater the reduction of freedom, the greater the resistance.

There is no reason to mandate the vaccine. None. Many resisted wearing masks, but the vast majority still did because it was inconvenient yet not something injected into the body.

A vaccine must always be a personal choice because it is injected into a person.

That is the difference between this and the seatbelt, and why your seatbelt analogy becomes a strawman argument. The seatbelt is worn, like the mask is worn.

So claiming there are going to be mandates becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If people would have done it otherwise, there'd be no motivation for having one. So who's to blame, the optimists that said 'go get your vaccine' or the people that carried on about inevitable mandates from day one?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Where do you put those that can but won?t and NOT for political reasons, rather for health and long term side effect concerns?

Should their lives be made as difficult as possible to a point where they are not allowed by edict to function in society if they refuse?

I don't follow, they can but won't for what reason now?

 

[Gulo Blue]

A vaccine must always be a personal choice because it is injected into a person.

That is the difference between this and the seatbelt, and why your seatbelt analogy becomes a strawman argument. The seatbelt is worn, like the mask is worn.

Ok, the seatbelt analogy wasn't supposed to be about mandates, but true, seatbelts are mandated. I know you can accept that I'm not obsessed with mandates, but I'm not and that not what I meant by that, so point taken.

How about sunscreen then? People still get skin cancer and sunburns after using sunscreen, but that doesn't mean sunscreen doesn't work.

I'm not talking about mandates. I'm talking about this idea that vaccines not being absolute justifying your language regarding their efficacy. It's wrong.

 

[tigermud]

I don't follow, they can but won't for what reason now?

Because right or wrong I see the vaccine has being a higher long term risk than my own natural immune system and not in a high risk category, very healthy avid long distance runner, that is my choice. Do you support all these mandates that will ultimately make it very difficult for me to function in today?s society? Now that I?ve even had it and have natural immunity to it, I?m going to be even more stubborn about it than ever.

 

[tigermud]

Ok, the seatbelt analogy wasn't supposed to be about mandates, but true, seatbelts are mandated. I know you can accept that I'm not obsessed with mandates, but I'm not and that not what I meant by that, so point taken.

How about sunscreen then? People still get skin cancer and sunburns after using sunscreen, but that doesn't mean sunscreen doesn't work.

I'm not talking about mandates. I'm talking about this idea that vaccines not being absolute justifying your language regarding their efficacy. It's wrong.

It?s not apples to apples seatbelts are taken off when you?re done driving, masks are removed when you get back to the car, the vaccine can?t be taken back out or undone, it?s permanent and in the body vs on it

 

[tigermud]

in a way, that's consistent with your "let people die, survival of the fittest" mantra.

I guess it's only bad if people die if they're anti-vaxx, drug addicts?

take care of yourself, don?t expect others to do it for you. You should be able to decide what you do or do not put in your own body.

 

[Spartanmack]

It's the end of 2021, or Year 2 of the Pandemic, and we're at 830,000 dead Americans, with a dramatic drop in American life expectancy. And in addition to the people dead, according to research of those who survived, almost half - i.e. millions more - still have negative health effects 6 months or more after recovery.

At this point, I don't really care what the deniers are still saying about COVID, Omicron, and vaccines & health precautions in general... I'm curious what they would have said if you could go back in time to March 1, 2020 and show them those numbers.

In theory, that number would serve as a wake up call to many of them, because - unless you're a Nazi - 800,000+ dead Americans is an unprecedented disaster. But I'm guessing they'd just stare at you, drooling, until 5-10 minutes passed, then walk away and mindlessly repeat the things they heard back then: "no worse than the flu" ... "don't let the cure be worse than the disease" ... "everyone's going to get it anyway"... "only 1% who get it die" ... with no understanding that 1% of the population of the US was still 3.3 MILLION people, and regardless the 1% number was based on the # of cases not overwhelming the health care system so that everyone who needed treatment and medicine to survive could get it.

good, about time you caught up because I doubt anyone cares what you're still saying about this virus or the massively inflated death numbers...

 

[Michchamp]

take care of yourself, don?t expect others to do it for you. You should be able to decide what you do or do not put in your own body.

I find the concerns about vaccines a lot more credible if you guys didn't all scream and cry about masks and every other single thing proposed to curb the spread of COVID.

It seems like some people have politicized every single goddamn issue beyond all reason.

Biden could say "Tie your shoes before you go out so you don't trip" and you'd be screaming about tyranny, and sharing links of alex jones and PJW cutting their laces off their shoes.

 

[Spartanmack]

Because right or wrong I see the vaccine has being a higher long term risk than my own natural immune system and not in a high risk category, very healthy avid long distance runner, that is my choice. Do you support all these mandates that will ultimately make it very difficult for me to function in today?s society? Now that I?ve even had it and have natural immunity to it, I?m going to be even more stubborn about it than ever.

that's why I didn't get the vax and I have absolutely no regrets about it. I feel zero guilt because I haven't put anyone else at risk. Nor do I feel I put myself at risk - I was confident, based on the data and my personal health situation that I wouldn't get seriously ill if infected. If anything, anyone who has taken the vax should be more careful around others since they're much more likely to be asymptomatic spreaders than I was/am.