Ferguson, MO

[tigersofjustice]

I'm not sure who's testimony was counted on more but it's safe to say quite a few testimonies were probably false.

One, two, whatever, if you are a prosecutor and you knowingly put on that type of witness in front of a grand jury and don't at least cross examine them a bit, you are not doing your job. That would be malpractice in a civil setting.

 

[tigersofjustice]

What a fucking joke. Wilson, whether justified in the shooting or not was horribly incompetent. 12 motherfucking shots at an unarmed teenager! Half of which went wild in a crowded area.

But he did the best any cop could. :lmao:

Agree, a lot of variations of what actually happened could have happened that day based on what people actually 'know'. One thing the definitely didn't happen was good police work. Bad police work happened with very little doubt. Most officers would never have put themselves in the position for that sequence of events to occur.

 

[Michchamp]

What a fucking joke. Wilson, whether justified in the shooting or not was horribly incompetent. 12 motherfucking shots at an unarmed teenager! Half of which went wild in a crowded area.

But he did the best any cop could. :lmao:

yeah, good police work doesn't result in a random stop of an unarmed kid getting used for 25-50 yard target practice.

 

[Michchamp]

How do you know about the pace Brown was moving at? I think I missed that part.

I'm guessing he's tired of this thread, and figures making something up will allow him to slink out of it.

the infographic you posted on pg. 23 seems to support that Brown moved toward Wilson possibly after getting shot, but of course, says nothing about the manner or speed in which he moved toward him.

it appears the only testimony about him charging officer Wilson (while being shot repeatedly!) comes from Wilson himself, and crazy bi-polar Witness #40 lady who has changed her story twice, posted racist comments about Brown, and didn't come forward until 4 weeks after the shooting.

 

[zyxt9]

How do you know about the pace Brown was moving at? I think I missed that part.

RxT=D

While the time element is variable, all accounts were consistent to my knowledge that after Brown turned around and the final shot was taken was very short, a few seconds. It does not take but a few seconds to fire off 10 rounds, even with a pause in between two groupings.

The distance was determined as measurement from blood pooling to final resting location of the body. According to your posted diagram, this was approximately 22 feet. Taking into account that Wilson (despite the unreliable reports that Brown never moved, he obviously did) likely did not begin firing until Brown had gone roughly 2 feet (why would Wilson begin firing sooner than that?) so that gives us a pretty good estimate of 20 feet that Brown covered in under 5 seconds (which should be regarded as the slowest time it would have taken Wilson to fire 10 rounds in a rapid fire situation at singular target that is remaining in straight line moving toward shooter). I'm using these rough estimates to figure Brown was moving at an average of roughly 4 feet per second. This is equal to the average walking speed of an adult. By these estimations, this is the slowest pace Brown was travelling...with probability he was moving faster than that being pretty high as most cops can fire 10 rounds faster than 5 seconds. A more accurate estimation would be (using easily divided numbers) 21 feet traveled in 3 seconds, which would be 7 feet per second or almost double an adults average walking speed. Either way, these are estimates and I gave both a slowest and most reasonable estimate to provide a logical window that I would provide a logical estimate that has, IMO, a 90% chance of being correct and a 10% chance of Brown moving slower or faster. Feel free to dispute these findings if you would like. Considering the lack of on target shots, Wilson was likely firing at a rate of at least 4 rounds per second, which will result in more misses than hits but when in perceived life or death situation, one's instinct is to throw as much lead as possible down range and aim suffers as a result until target gets close. So considering a max fire rate could have been closer to 5 rounds per second in that adrenaline state, it is also possible Brown could have been traveling around an average of 10 feet / second. While it is possible Wilson could have fired at 1 round per second, resulting in Brown traveling at 2 feet per second, the number of misses indicates Wilson was likely firing at a faster rate. To me, while Wilson could have maintained better composure and thereby maybe only needing to fire 2 well aimed shots, the adrenaline and fight/flight instincts take over. Adding in the fact this was Wilson's first time discharging his weapon at a suspect (5+ year career) coupled with the documented misses, there is a greater likelihood that the rate of fire was above 2 rounds per second due to adrenaline and fight/flight overpowering the knowledge that less rounds per second yields better aim and less required shots.

Again, feel free to dispute my estimations. I'm trying to be realistic and not trying to skew things in favor of Wilson or Brown, but using the following facts:

Number of feet from blood pool to body: 22 (yes, I used 20 and 21 for ease of calculations, but the lower numbers favor Brown moving slower. If I had said 25' over 5 seconds, that would be 5'/sec as opposed to 20 feet over 5 seconds which is 4'/sec...so champ and his ilk have little to cry foul over)
Number of rounds fired: 10 (using rough estimate of 2 rounds per second, which is on the low end in this setting based on eye witness testimony combined with number of missed shots indicating lack of aiming and faster pull on trigger...again, using lower number to give benefit of doubt to Brown and his defenders).

So, 4 feet per second...or normal walking pace of an adult human. As I have stated many times before, why would anyone move toward someone with a gun like that? Especially a cop with whom you already fought with? Also take into account that the 4'/sec rate is from a standing position, which it usually takes at least 2 strides / roughly 6 feet for a guy taller than 6' / and over 1 second to reach that velocity. Taking into account the rate of acceleration, the probability is Brown was traveling faster than the average walking speed of a human, but he also would have a longer stride, therefore he may have had an average walking speed faster than 4'/sec in normal walking motion. Still, pretty stupid to move that fast toward someone you previously fought with and now has a gun pointed at you. Zero reason for Wilson to believe he was coming over peaceably at such a rate of speed.

 

[zyxt9]

I'm guessing he's tired of this thread, and figures making something up will allow him to slink out of it.

the infographic you posted on pg. 23 seems to support that Brown moved toward Wilson possibly after getting shot, but of course, says nothing about the manner or speed in which he moved toward him.

it appears the only testimony about him charging officer Wilson (while being shot repeatedly!) comes from Wilson himself, and crazy bi-polar Witness #40 lady who has changed her story twice, posted racist comments about Brown, and didn't come forward until 4 weeks after the shooting.

Try again dickhead. See the above post and eat shit.

 

[Gulo Blue]

While the time element is variable, all accounts were consistent to my knowledge that after Brown turned around and the final shot was taken was very short, a few seconds. It does not take but a few seconds to fire off 10 rounds, even with a pause in between two groupings.

This is the part I'm not sure about. I haven't seen testimony suggesting the 2nd set of shots were all close together, generally there's nothing there to indicate time. One account that described Brown as running did break it up into groups "?And the boy wouldn?t stop, he fired three rounds, the dude kept running, fired four more rounds, and the finished off the rounds I guess, and he fell on the ground dead.? To me, that sounds like there are pauses, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest there's evidence of the duration of the 2nd set of shots fired.

 

[Thumb]

I'm trying to be realistic and not trying to skew things in favor of Wilson or Brown

 

[Michchamp]

Lol.

 

[zyxt9]

Point out flaws with some sort of physical evidence or facts.

I'm giving Brown the benefit of doubt when I say he was traveling at 4'/sec. Explain how he was traveling slower using some type of fact. Anything. If Wilson was firing at slower than 2 rounds per second, at that range there is an expectation of higher target hits, especially for a target moving directly toward shooter. Champ, you've fired guns, you know about re-aiming after firing. The longer you take between shots, the more on target the shot will be. All cops have to pass tests for accuracy, including in simulated rapid fire. First time discharging weapon at real target though is far different from firing on a gun range, especially when already having adrenaline up from altercation.

You should be able to grasp these points. How long do you think it took him to fire 10 rounds? Do you honestly think it would be slower than 2 rounds per second? You've fired guns, not sure if you've done a rapid fire exercise with a handgun, but tell me how that is unreasonable, particularly since that rate equates to a average walking speed for Brown?

Now is someone walking toward you going to be interpreted as a "charge"? No. But it is safe to say the body wasn't somehow teleported from the blood pool to the final location the way so many "reliable eye witnesses" would claim. So how would YOU determine the rate he was moving? And don't tell me it is impossible to do, I already layed out groundwork to provide you with an ability to say Brown was "merely" walking toward Wilson.

Of course, "merely" walking toward Wilson in this situation warranted being shot and I don't believe for a second any cop in that situation would have not fired their weapon, rightfully so.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If Wilson was firing at slower than 2 rounds per second, at that range there is an expectation of higher target hits, especially for a target moving directly toward shooter.

This is an assumption. Is it fair to develop accuracy expectations in a practice range and then use those expectation for a guy wrestling with fight or flight chemicals in his system?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Is any of that the point though? Is that the kind of thing you argue to grand jury or is that the sort of thing that is explored in a trial?

 

[Michchamp]

Is any of that the point though? Is that the kind of thing you argue to grand jury or is that the sort of thing that is explored in a trial?

a trial, with counsel for both sides present, able to cross-examine witnesses, present their own evidence, and a prosecutor who is not in the tank for the cops.

 

[zyxt9]

This is the part I'm not sure about. I haven't seen testimony suggesting the 2nd set of shots were all close together, generally there's nothing there to indicate time. One account that described Brown as running did break it up into groups "?And the boy wouldn?t stop, he fired three rounds, the dude kept running, fired four more rounds, and the finished off the rounds I guess, and he fell on the ground dead.? To me, that sounds like there are pauses, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest there's evidence of the duration of the 2nd set of shots fired.

And it is likely Brown was moving at variable speeds and not at a constant 4'/sec. Can you say I am being unfair to Brown in determining his speed to be 4'/sec? Can you somehow claim that my math is completely off? I'm using averages to account for probability that the shots were in groups and rate of fire for each group could be at 4 rounds/sec, with pauses between. This is substantiated by the number of misses. I'm saying the average is 2 rounds/sec. Is that unreasonable? The gun can be fired faster than that, so I'm using an average.

Brown could have been moving slower or faster than 4'/sec and multiple points in time as well. It is a reasonable conclusion that this is a solid approximation based on rate of fire and compared to average walking speed of a human. It is probable Brown could have managed to move at 10'/sec and he also could have stop during that timeframe. I'm talking about the average rate.

You asked me how I was determining the rate, I provided my findings. You can dispute them, but they are nonetheless reasonable and to claim otherwise is to be unrealistic. Brown moved 20' in the time it took Wilson to fire 10 rounds. Provide me any logic that the 10 rounds took longer than 5 seconds to be sent down range, pauses included. 1-2-3...pause...4-5-6-7....pause...8-9-10. Each group and each pause would potentially be around 1 second, which again returns back total of 5 seconds which yields 4'/sec on average.

No one claimed the shots were fired at a slow rate. Not one single solitary witness.

So while I'm using averages, you know what I am saying has far more merit than not. Brown moved toward Wilson, and not at a rate slower than average adult walking speed. That rate deserves the eventual result, period. Brown consciously chose to move toward someone pointing a gun at him, and continued to move toward that person across approximately 20' of space despite being fired upon. No cop would have acted differently, nor should they be expected to. To put a limitation on police in that specific scenario is to have the police end up dead instead of the bad guy...and yes, Brown was a bad guy that day.

The police have the right to protect themselves as much as any ordinary citizen, and in that specific situation, no ordinary citizen would be found guilty as they are entitled to defend themselves from a threat. Even Champ would have fired his gun in that situation, despite all his BS in this thread. The person with the gun has the right to fire it, whether those bullets kill the target or not, they still have every right to fire. Target is larger, had prior altercation, target is moving toward you...every person in that situation will fire their gun...well, every person who lives through the situation would have fired it. Those who don't or who miss every shot will likely end up severely beaten at best, but most likely dead.

The way many make it sound, Wilson killed Brown execution style.

There are plenty of other cases that warrant scrutiny and the police definitely did not act properly. There is zero evidence to support the belief that Wilson was in the wrong when shooting Brown. As they say, "It was a good shoot." Now that comment ought to really get some panties in a bunch.

 

[zyxt9]

This is an assumption. Is it fair to develop accuracy expectations in a practice range and then use those expectation for a guy wrestling with fight or flight chemicals in his system?

I'm going off of standard "heat of the moment", "middle of the fight" expectations...not gun range expectations. Others are saying he has terrible aim, blah, blah, blah...I'm providing justification for why he had such a high miss rate. If you could acquire his gun range rapid fire scores, I'd bet my life savings that those gun range rapid fire accuracy scores were far better.

A relatively large target at 20'...misses will happen, but not to that % when firing slowly and taking time to aim. Firing rapidly reduces time to aim, which reduces hit %. Target moving toward you also increases hit %.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Can you say I am being unfair to Brown in determining his speed to be 4'/sec?

The fact that you're asking this is a pretty good indicator that you're going beyond just looking at the evidence. We don't know the time from the first shot to the last shot. It could have been 2 second, it could have been 20. We don't know. Why do you think a pause can't be more than 1 second?

What testimony are you relying on? I posted the most suggestive thing I saw in a set of excerpts selected by a news organization, what have you found?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm going off of standard "heat of the moment", "middle of the fight" expectations...not gun range expectations. Others are saying he has terrible aim, blah, blah, blah...I'm providing justification for why he had such a high miss rate. If you could acquire his gun range rapid fire scores, I'd bet my life savings that those gun range rapid fire accuracy scores were far better.

A relatively large target at 20'...misses will happen, but not to that % when firing slowly and taking time to aim. Firing rapidly reduces time to aim, which reduces hit %. Target moving toward you also increases hit %.

Where you get these expectations from?

 

[zyxt9]

Is any of that the point though? Is that the kind of thing you argue to grand jury or is that the sort of thing that is explored in a trial?

Of course you argue it at the Grand Jury. Target is moving toward you. Ok, what was the pace. Wilson, with his adrenaline rush, would interpret it to be faster than reality from his view point. The overall point though is that the target was moving at 4'/sec toward the cop. Not one single cop should ever be sent before a trial in that situation. It was a good shoot.

Argue whether or not he should have backed his car up. Argue whether or not he should have gotten out of the car. Argue other things if you want, but from the point Brown began moving toward Wilson, Wilson had the right to defend himself and it was a good shoot, and no Grand Jury should ever send that aspect to trial.

Considering the fact as a cop he had the right to arrest Brown on suspicion of theft, he had the right to back the car up, and get out of the car to pursue the suspect. Suspect turning and then moving at a walking pace minimum toward the cop who has their gun drawn and pointed, yet the suspect keeps moving...cop should never go before trial for that. It was a good shoot. Period.

 

[zyxt9]

Where you get these expectations from?

Ummm...reality. Where do you get your's? Damn Gulo, Wilson was 100% justified in shooting this guy. 100%. Never should we expect someone in his situation to not shoot. 20' of ground covered...Brown was a threat. Period.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Of course you argue it at the Grand Jury. Target is moving toward you. Ok, what was the pace. Wilson, with his adrenaline rush, would interpret it to be faster than reality from his view point. The overall point though is that the target was moving at 4'/sec toward the cop. Not one single cop should ever be sent before a trial in that situation. It was a good shoot.

Argue whether or not he should have backed his car up. Argue whether or not he should have gotten out of the car. Argue other things if you want, but from the point Brown began moving toward Wilson, Wilson had the right to defend himself and it was a good shoot, and no Grand Jury should ever send that aspect to trial.

Considering the fact as a cop he had the right to arrest Brown on suspicion of theft, he had the right to back the car up, and get out of the car to pursue the suspect. Suspect turning and then moving at a walking pace minimum toward the cop who has their gun drawn and pointed, yet the suspect keeps moving...cop should never go before trial for that. It was a good shoot. Period.

So you're good with the difference in the indictment rate of policy officers and everyone else. Prosecutors arguing in defense of the person they are prosecuting makes sense and you don't see a conflict of interest.