Ferguson, MO

[Michchamp]

Maybe not, but those riots show the potential for violence. Graffiti that says the only good cop is a dead cop and kill the pigs also supports it. I feel for the kid's family, but if there was no rioting or looting on night one, the military equipment would have stayed on the shelf.

some accounts say the police provoked the rioting and looting on day one.

and anyways, after 9/11/01 we took a pretty insane view of terrorism and violence... we justify oppressive police actions nationwide because of the widely accepted belief that any terrorist attacks are completely unacceptable. It's fucking retarded. you're far more likely to be struck by lightening, yet in order to prevent a terrorist attack, in some parts of the nation, those who fly, etc. are subjected to oppressive police conduct on a daily basis.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Exactly. If you put someone in tactical gear and train them to react to every threat you can imagine, you get a different type of police officer with a different mindset; you get someone that's more likely to see everything as a threat. I'm not saying most police aren't good police, it's just a matter of numbers. You push the whole population of officers to be more authoritarian and the percentage that go too far will go up.

...and on the other side, if you're raging against what you see as police brutality, the same person that might yell at an officer he can look in the eye might be the guy throwing a molotov cocktail at an armored vehicle surrounded by faceless, helmeted figures.

 

[spockmaster]

And the riots/looting continues...

Meanwhile, a white 20 year old killed for stupid reasons in Utah. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...ah-man-because-he-wouldnt-comply-with-orders/

I was watching the livestreams last night. It was instigated by the police. The asshole riot police showed up to what had been a peaceful "block party", ramped up tensions, threw a few small tear gas and smoke grenades, then stood off and just watched as a small group tried looting. The residents/rest of the protesters stopped the looters, who were apparently all from out of the area. Last night was the police's direct fault.

 

[Monster]

Lol you guys are insane. Do you hear yourselves? Tough looking cops show up, so it's time to shoot at them and riot? Give me a break!

Cops are out of control, yes. I fully agree. But if they tear gassed you, wouldn't your first instinct be to go the fuck home or get away? Or are you saying you'd throw fire bombs at them and break into stores and steal shit?

 

[Michchamp]

Lol you guys are insane. Do you hear yourselves? Tough looking cops show up, so it's time to shoot at them and riot? Give me a break!

Cops are out of control, yes. I fully agree. But if they tear gassed you, wouldn't your first instinct be to go the fuck home or get away? Or are you saying you'd throw fire bombs at them and break into stores and steal shit?

well... the police are supposed to be trained professionals. these guys are more like Homer Simpson's vigilante gang

 

[Monster]

well... the police are supposed to be trained professionals. these guys are more like Homer Simpson's vigilante gang

Like I said, out of control. I don't deny it. That doesn't give an excuse to a group of thugs to firebomb and shoot at police. It doesn't give them an excuse to loot or riot. How many protesters were hurt by the militarized cops in Ferguson? How many died? Zero and zero...unless you count burning eyes from tear gas.

Things need to change on the police side, but this culture of "fuck the police" has to change, too. You get pulled over or questioned, do as you're told and comply with requests. Fighting with cops is probably the stupidest thing you can do.

 

[Gulo Blue]

But if they tear gassed you, wouldn't your first instinct be to go the fuck home or get away? Or are you saying you'd throw fire bombs at them and break into stores and steal shit?

No. I was in Michigan Stadium when people started rushing the field. It was just a trickle of people until the pepper spray was blown into the student section. Then everyone went. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's how people reacted.

 

[tinselwolverine]

No. I was in Michigan Stadium when people started rushing the field. It was just a trickle of people until the pepper spray was blown into the student section. Then everyone went. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's how people reacted.

Maybe they all ran onto the field to get away from the pepper spray that was being blown into the student section.

 

[Sbee]

Like I said, out of control. I don't deny it. That doesn't give an excuse to a group of thugs to firebomb and shoot at police. It doesn't give them an excuse to loot or riot. How many protesters were hurt by the militarized cops in Ferguson? How many died? Zero and zero...unless you count burning eyes from tear gas.

Things need to change on the police side, but this culture of "fuck the police" has to change, too. You get pulled over or questioned, do as you're told and comply with requests. Fighting with cops is probably the stupidest thing you can do.

you think that people weigh the outcomes and thing rationally, you think that more aggression from the police would lead to more submission from the rioters. in fact, the exact opposite happens, the more the police escalate things the more violence breaks out. Police act as antagonists in this situation

 

[tinselwolverine]

Lol you guys are insane. Do you hear yourselves? Tough looking cops show up, so it's time to shoot at them and riot? Give me a break!

Cops are out of control, yes. I fully agree. But if they tear gassed you, wouldn't your first instinct be to go the fuck home or get away? Or are you saying you'd throw fire bombs at them and break into stores and steal shit?

I stay out of the way of

1 Mobs/rioters

2 Armored military/paramilitary

3 News/Camera crew

4 Race cars

 

[Michchamp]

you think that people weigh the outcomes and thing rationally, you think that more aggression from the police would lead to more submission from the rioters. in fact, the exact opposite happens, the more the police escalate things the more violence breaks out. Police act as antagonists in this situation

blaming the rioters in this situation for pretty much anything is absurd.

I'm trying to think of some good analogies here so Monster can understand it better, without being too condescending to the people rioting.

I guess if you had a segment of people that was mostly impoverished, under-educated (by design & policy), subject to racial profiling & police harassment on a regular basis, basically disenfranchised from the vote (look at the % of African American residents of the town... and literally all elected officials and most of the police are white?), and incarcerated at much higher rates than the rest of the population, and all of this had been going on for decades, so that they were unable to properly educate their children, and literally entire generations had to learn to fend for themselves by living in the streets, selling drugs, hustling for cash, all of which were illegal... you shouldn't be surprised when they resort to violence after being provoked with tear gas, rubber bullets, and arbitrary enforcement of curfews and trespassing law. At some level, the policy & elected officials of the town, county, and state know what they're doing, and yet they should know better... I don't expect the rioters to.

 

[Michchamp]

I stay out of the way of

1 Mobs/rioters

2 Armored military/paramilitary

3 News/Camera crew

4 Race cars driven by Tony Stewart

added a qualifier there. Only Tony Stewart will run you over. Everyone else on the track will avoid you.

 

[tinselwolverine]

added a qualifier there. Only Tony Stewart will run you over. Everyone else on the track will avoid you.

I don't know. Has any other dumbass taken on a car driven by anybody else and not gotten run over?

I'm not taking my chances.

Not even if it's Danica.

ESPECIALLY not if it's her, come to think of it.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't know. Has any other dumbass taken on a car driven by anybody else and not gotten run over?

I'm not taking my chances.

Not even if it's Danica.

ESPECIALLY not if it's her, come to think of it.

when we were talking about that, I read that Stewart himself once ran on a track and threw his helmet at another car.

if you scroll down this article, there's even a pic of the incident from the car's dashcam.

Not sure if anyone else has done that. To be honest with you, I don't really follow NASCAR.

 

[Sbee]

blaming the rioters in this situation for pretty much anything is absurd.

I'm trying to think of some good analogies here so Monster can understand it better, without being too condescending to the people rioting.

I guess if you had a segment of people that was mostly impoverished, under-educated (by design & policy), subject to racial profiling & police harassment on a regular basis, basically disenfranchised from the vote (look at the % of African American residents of the town... and literally all elected officials and most of the police are white?), and incarcerated at much higher rates than the rest of the population, and all of this had been going on for decades, so that they were unable to properly educate their children, and literally entire generations had to learn to fend for themselves by living in the streets, selling drugs, hustling for cash, all of which were illegal... you shouldn't be surprised when they resort to violence after being provoked with tear gas, rubber bullets, and arbitrary enforcement of curfews and trespassing law. At some level, the policy & elected officials of the town, county, and state know what they're doing, and yet they should know better... I don't expect the rioters to.

just to clarify, I'm not blaming the rioters, I have problems with the looters but I think people should be outraged. my point was in a way paraphrasing malcom gladwell's last book when he talked about Northern Ireland. of course there are a lot of holes in his books, he seems to come up with a clever conclusion and then work backwards to prove it but it does make sense. he basically says that those in power have to have legitimacy in order to get the desired result, the imbalance of power between the rioters and police doesn't deter the rioters, it actually does the opposite.

 

[Monster]

you think that people weigh the outcomes and thing rationally, you think that more aggression from the police would lead to more submission from the rioters. in fact, the exact opposite happens, the more the police escalate things the more violence breaks out. Police act as antagonists in this situation

The police are the aggressors? antagonists? The first night, there was no push against protesters until looting started.

The next day, they bring out the heavy equipment and the cops start getting shot at, firebombed, and assaulted by people throwing shit. They try to disperse the crowd - even the peaceful ones since they didn't know who was attacking - and protesters cry about their rights and heavily armed cops.

They bring in a black local highway cop who gets rid of the mean looking cops. One night of peace before protesters realize they can do what they want. Next night looting again with one death. Heavy cops come in again and try to disperse. Once more, police are blamed.

Look, I'm against the militarization of local cops. I just don't see them at total fault here. It seems these people cry about justice, but refuse to let justice happen. I hope they realize that justice isn't arresting someone without due process, which is what they seem to want.

Let me ask you...if you're a cop in a place where there are people shooting at you and graffiti that says "kill all pigs" and "only good cop is a dead cop", would you prefer armor or plain clothes? Remember, there is looting, so you have to be there.

 

[Monster]

Aaaaannnnd...the cop's side of the story comes out. Seems more logical than "white cop kills black teen with his hands up in surrender".

 

[Michchamp]

just to clarify, I'm not blaming the rioters,...

I know. I forgot to mention I was agreeing wiht you and disagreeing with Monster, aka, "Mr. Authoritarian"

 

[Gulo Blue]

Let me ask you...if you're a cop in a place where there are people shooting at you and graffiti that says "kill all pigs" and "only good cop is a dead cop", would you prefer armor or plain clothes? Remember, there is looting, so you have to be there.

There's a world of difference between a bullet proof vest and weapons on tripods.

 

[Monster]

I know. I forgot to mention I was agreeing wiht you and disagreeing with Monster, aka, "Mr. Authoritarian"

That's not me. I just happen to think you lose your right to protest once riots and looting starts. I think that police should have all the DEFENSIVE equipment they need. Crowd control is important when things start getting out of control.