Fielder for Kinsler trade

[Rebbiv]

DD and the Tigers brass know a shit ton more than you and I. If they thought they could have dumped Fielder on a team and got more than Kinsler they would have done it. Some people may see Fielder's HR numbers spike in TX but that will be because of the ballpark. Getting rid of that albetross of a contract, getting a similar value player in return while adding a great deal of current and future flexibility is a win for the Tigers.

The same brass that signed Fielder to begin with? The same brass that said that Cabrera could keep playing without doing more damage (groin tear)?

Similar value player? What are you smoking? Because I want some. Kinsler is a joke of a player. I would be hard pressed to justify him at $10 Mil a year and without the $30 Mil factor.

2014 = $16 MIL
2015 = $16 MIL (2-yr avg $16 MIL)
2016 = $14 MIL (3 yr avg $15.3 MIL)
2017 = $11 MIL (4-yr avg $14.3 MIL if Option picked up, $15.5 MIL if not, plus $30 MIL = $21.8 MIL)
2018 = $10 MIL Option (5-yr avg $13.4 MIL, add $30 MIL = $19.4 MIL)

Bottom line, if DET does not pick up Kinsler's 2018 contract, he will have cost the Tigers $87 Mil over the next 4 years to provide BELOW AVERAGE AWAY Offense (for any player, let alone a 2B). Kinsler = $87 Mil over the next 4 years, Fielder would have only cost $96 Mil.

It is the $72 Mil between 2018-2020 that will be the difference. But that is still 4 years off Regardless of what others think, we aren't saving but about $2 Mil a year over the next 4 years.

 

[Rebbiv]

I think everybody is trying too hard to anoint a "winner" and "loser" in this deal, but in all honesty, it makes a lot of sense for both sides.

The Tigers get a very good 2B for the next 5yrs, they save $76mil and thus have more flexibility to extend Cabrera/Max/etc., they aren't on the hook for 7yrs of Fielder's deal which will likely look uglier and uglier towards the end, they can rotate Miggy through 1B/DH which should keep him healthier, they now have the flexibility to sign a 3B/LF/DH/1B if they want to add a bat, they can break in their best prospect in Castellanos instead of having to go with Perez (probably a plus, but who knows with prospects?), they may have gotten rid of a guy with an attitude problem and/or other baggage... sure, we're losing a legitimate 30HR/100RBI guy from our lineup now, but it may well prevent us from losing our Cy Young winner next year and/or our MVP two years from now.

For the Rangers, they get a lefty power bat who should put up great numbers in their home park. They move the most expensive, and arguably lowest upside member of the trio of middle infielders they had. They are adding Fielder without really another losing starter. With the Tigers eating $30mil of the deal, it's like they are getting Fielder for under $20mil/yr, which is a lot more palatable.

I think it's a win-win deal.

A. Kinsler is and will be a below average 2B

B. Where is our lefty power bat now that Fielder is gone?

 

[tomdalton22]

The same brass that signed Fielder to begin with? The same brass that said that Cabrera could keep playing without doing more damage (groin tear)?

Similar value player? What are you smoking? Because I want some. Kinsler is a joke of a player. I would be hard pressed to justify him at $10 Mil a year and without the $30 Mil factor.

2014 = $16 MIL
2015 = $16 MIL (2-yr avg $16 MIL)
2016 = $14 MIL (3 yr avg $15.3 MIL)
2017 = $11 MIL (4-yr avg $14.3 MIL if Option picked up, $15.5 MIL if not, plus $30 MIL = $21.8 MIL)
2018 = $10 MIL Option (5-yr avg $13.4 MIL, add $30 MIL = $19.4 MIL)

Bottom line, if DET does not pick up Kinsler's 2018 contract, he will have cost the Tigers $87 Mil over the next 4 years to provide BELOW AVERAGE AWAY Offense (for any player, let alone a 2B). Kinsler = $87 Mil over the next 4 years, Fielder would have only cost $96 Mil.

It is the $72 Mil between 2018-2020 that will be the difference. But that is still 4 years off Regardless of what others think, we aren't saving but about $2 Mil a year over the next 4 years.

The Fielder signing was a result of a senile old man's infatuation with Prince. It was a TERRIBLE signing!!! I don't disagree with you that Kinsler is just an average to slightly above average 2B. The plus of this trade comes with getting rid of Princess, getting a quality 2B, moving Miggy back to 1B, the ability to put Nick C. in his natural position and most of all FLEXIBILITY! You might be the only one that thinks this isn't a win for the Tigers.

 

[byco42]

both teams got what they needed. The Tigers had too many 3 DH/1B and the Rangers had 3 middle infielders. The Rangers needed a LH power bat and the Tigers needed a 2B. The Tigers had way too much money tied up in long term contracts. I think both teams got what they needed.

Go do some reading (KC posted a bunch of articles)....I haven't found a single article that doesn't rave about what the Tigers did (getting rid of Fielder's contract and adding flexibility)

Tigers gave up what they now lack: LH power. Maybe the once consolation is that we get to watch another team pay for Fielder's infirmary years. "Getting rid of Fielders contract and adding flexibility." Beginning to sound like a political talking point. Here's one to counter that. "Absorbed another contract and did not help road run production."

 

[Rebbiv]

The Fielder signing was a result of a senile old man's infatuation with Prince. It was a TERRIBLE signing!!! I don't disagree with you that Kinsler is just an average to slightly above average 2B. The plus of this trade comes with getting rid of Princess, getting a quality 2B, moving Miggy back to 1B, the ability to put Nick C. in his natural position and most of all FLEXIBILITY! You might be the only one that thinks this isn't a win for the Tigers.

Ummm...I don't even think Kinsler is an average 2B. So we disagree in his value.

And that flexibility, really does not occur until 2018.

 

[Rebbiv]

Also...two wrongs do not make a right.

Fielder's contract was bad. So why make another poor decision to try and make it right?

 

[tomdalton22]

Ummm...I don't even think Kinsler is an average 2B. So we disagree in his value.

And that flexibility, really does not occur until 2018.

A lot of you want the Tigers to extend Miggy or Max now. Getting rid of Fielder allows that to happen. That is flexibility.

 

[jared]

Ummm...I don't even think Kinsler is an average 2B. So we disagree in his value.

And that flexibility, really does not occur until 2018.

Kinsler has a WAR of 2.5 last year. Doesn't that, by definition, make him an above average second baseman?

 

[turok]

That so-called LH power bat was a cipher in the postseason, and apparently became aloof and troublesome in the Tigers' clubhouse. Good riddance, Tigers will have to find another power lefty, that might not put up the regular-season stats of a Fielder, but will probably play better D and maybe if not very LIKELY do better on O in the possible postseason.

 

[Rebbiv]

Kinsler has a WAR of 2.5 last year. Doesn't that, by definition, make him an above average second baseman?

WAR is a flawed stat.

Just look at his away stats (OPS and/OR Run Created) compared with other 2B, and his away stats are below average.

Last 3 Years Away (assumes park neutral)

Kinsler #19 of 31 2B with .690 OPS

Kinsler #20 of 31 2B with .304 wOBA

Kinsler #20 of 31 2B with 90 wRC+

Which one of these valuable stats shows Kinsler as average or above average?

 

[byco42]

Take it for what it's worth but Denny McClain was on the radio this morning saying that there was some very bad blood between Prince and a few other Tigers in the locker room, there was some ugly things that happened and we traded away a guy this year because of one of the incidents. Said the whole story will come out now that Prince is gone. Basically saying Prince was hated by several of his teammates.

Again, it's Denny McClain, but he and Leyland are pretty good friends.

Denny knows a lot about fomenting clubhouse discord. Perhaps the most disappointing Tiger player in my lifetime in regards to ability vs. maturity. He was washed out at 26. He's have been an HOFer with Lolich's temperament. EDIT: The A's and Yankees of the 1970s had the clubhouse chemistry of Folsom Prison and look what that mattered. If the Tigers traded Fielder primarily because of this that irritates me even more.

 

[biggunsbob]

He must have rub guys the wrong way in the clubhouse.. So if he was not liked and coupled with his last two post season debacles he had to go. I mean he sounded so much like he did not even give a shit after his team lost after the Boston series was over. Plus not sure if this is true he is already bashing playing at Comerica. My wife heard it on the radio this morning.. Maybe the deal does not start helping till 2018 but at least we got rid of a guy who does not want to be here..

 

[Rebbiv]

I get the fact that Fielder probably needed to be gone. I just feel we jumped at the first "live" offer and settled for something most will be bitching about in a year or two. And any perceived value is negated by the lack of production.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

A. Kinsler is and will be a below average 2B

B. Where is our lefty power bat now that Fielder is gone?

A. I think he's good to very good, you apparently think he's below average to bad. Pick your stats/awards/expert opinions to support, then agree to disagree.

B. Is having a lefty power bat a requirement now? I'm not arguing that it's nice to have or that we won't miss his 30HR/100RBI production, but nobody's going to miss the bloated contract and the associated inability to extend our other players, his terrible defense, his terrible speed and base running, and his disappearing act in the playoffs.

You need to stop looking at this as a Fielder for Kinsler swap, and consider everything else this entails. It likely means we can extend Cabrera for the rest of his career and have him retire as a HOF player, we can try out our best young prospect at his natural position rather than having to take that risk with a lower ranked prospect, we'll have much better infield defense by removing Fielder from the equation and sliding Cabrera over to 1B, this likely keeps Cabrera healthier and thus more productive, the Tigers get $76mil in salary relief, etc. and so on...

 

[UMRules06]

I agree this is a deal that had to be done based on everything we're hearing about the clubhouse dynamic, and Prince basically not being fully happy here anymore (if he ever was). We can break down any numbers we want to try to ascertain value in money saved vs on field production, but a healthy clubhouse is also valuable. I also don't understand the argument of where's our left-handed power now? Unless we are trading Prince Fielder for Adam Dunn or something, we were going to lose at least some left-handed power pretty much regardless of who we received in return. Most people said they would trade Fielder for any kind of bullpen help and a bag of baseballs.

Let's also keep in mind that the offseason is still young. I'd like to let the dust settle after all the moves are done and spring training is upon us before assessing the 2014 Tigers team. There might be lots more to come.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Good reads (not sure if these were already posted, so I apologize if they are duplicates)...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/tigers-exchange-albatross-for-good-player-get-even-better/

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...a-smart-trade-for-both-the-tigers-and-rangers

 

[Rebbiv]

A. I think he's good to very good, you apparently think he's below average to bad. Pick your stats/awards/expert opinions to support, then agree to disagree.

B. Is having a lefty power bat a requirement now? I'm not arguing that it's nice to have or that we won't miss his 30HR/100RBI production, but nobody's going to miss the bloated contract and the associated inability to extend our other players, his terrible defense, his terrible speed and base running, and his disappearing act in the playoffs.

You need to stop looking at this as a Fielder for Kinsler swap, and consider everything else this entails. It likely means we can extend Cabrera for the rest of his career and have him retire as a HOF player, we can try out our best young prospect at his natural position rather than having to take that risk with a lower ranked prospect, we'll have much better infield defense by removing Fielder from the equation and sliding Cabrera over to 1B, this likely keeps Cabrera healthier and thus more productive, the Tigers get $76mil in salary relief, etc. and so on...

Look at all his away stats and away only. This team has issues scoring on the road. Kinsler adds to that inability, he does not help. And compared to other 2B, his away stats (anyone you want to use) are all below average of those other 2B. So how is he not then below average?

That salary relief would have is not as great as some of you are making this out. Look what Kinsler is guaranteed and then add the $30 MIL. Then tell me when we are going to see that "salary relief".

We were going to resign Cabrera one way or the other, without this deal happening. It also doesn't change the fact I do not want to sign Scherzer to an extension. We need to sell high and probably now just need to focus on a left handed power LFer. But we could get that in a trade with Scherzer.

We are not getting younger or adding prospects anytime soon without trading some of our surplus (starting pitching). Scherzer will net more than Porcello or Fister and he has peaked.

 

[Rebbiv]

Current Lineup

1. Jackson (CF) - Right
2. Hunter (RF) - Right
3. Cabrera (1B) - Right
4. Martinez (DH) - Switch/but not really a HR hitter
5. Avila (C) - Left, but average HR power
6. Iglesias (SS) - Right
7. Castellanos (3B) - Right
8. Kinsler (2B) - Right
9. Dirks (LF) - Left, but does not hit for power

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Look at all his away stats and away only. This team has issues scoring on the road. Kinsler adds to that inability, he does not help. And compared to other 2B, his away stats (anyone you want to use) are all below average of those other 2B. So how is he not then below average?

That salary relief would have is not as great as some of you are making this out. Look what Kinsler is guaranteed and then add the $30 MIL. Then tell me when we are going to see that "salary relief".

We were going to resign Cabrera one way or the other, without this deal happening. It also doesn't change the fact I do not want to sign Scherzer to an extension. We need to sell high and probably now just need to focus on a left handed power LFer. But we could get that in a trade with Scherzer.

We are not getting younger or adding prospects anytime soon without trading some of our surplus (starting pitching). Scherzer will net more than Porcello or Fister and he has peaked.

The home/road splits need more context. Texas's park now becomes a road park, and CoPa becomes a home park, and he'll likely see more action in our division parks and less in the AL West parks. I'm not sure how all of that balances out, or if it's a wash.

Salary relief is salary relief. It's $76mil that can be used to sign other players, extend current players, or saved for a rainy day. It's also a shorter duration of money going to a guy that's likely going to be in sharp decline or waiting in line at Old Country Buffett when '18-'20 roll around.

I get that you don't want Scherzer signed, but that's still up in the air. Maybe he's signed, maybe he's dealt, maybe we spend the money on Choo or Beltran for LF or we grab a couple guys like Granderson and Nathan. Either way, I like having the ability to do that now. We realistically didn't have that before this trade.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't mind having Max back but not for Grienke money. You have to look at his career and not just his career year..He's a #2.