Fielder for Kinsler trade

[Thumb]

People need to stop attributing that 30 million payment to Kinsler. That's not how it works. That 30 million was not spent to acquire Kinsler but to dump Fielder's deal. If the Tigers just called people up and asked them to take Fielder and his contract, they probably would have had to chip in more than the 30 million for most teams to do it. The fact that it was only 30 million was because Kinsler's deal is also a bit over the top.

Kinsler does not cost 90+ million, he costs 60+. 30+ gave us the opportunity to dump Fielder. Valuing things like Kinsler costs 90+ is disingenuous and ignores the other realities of the situation.

Cost is cost no matter how you want to assign blame for said money. In the end that money is part of the Kinsler deal, and so that money IS and CAN be attributed to him.

 

[Mitchrapp]

People need to stop attributing that 30 million payment to Kinsler. That's not how it works. That 30 million was not spent to acquire Kinsler but to dump Fielder's deal. If the Tigers just called people up and asked them to take Fielder and his contract, they probably would have had to chip in more than the 30 million for most teams to do it. The fact that it was only 30 million was because Kinsler's deal is also a bit over the top.

Kinsler does not cost 90+ million, he costs 60+. 30+ gave us the opportunity to dump Fielder. Valuing things like Kinsler costs 90+ is disingenuous and ignores the other realities of the situation.

No doubt. I thought it was impossible to deal Fielder. In the early years it probably favors Texas, mostly because they have a young stud in Profar. Not that it doesn't help us right now. In the long run, it definitely helps us.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Cost is cost no matter how you want to assign blame for said money. In the end that money is part of the Kinsler deal, and so that money IS and CAN be attributed to him.

In the end we still save over 70 million. Can do a lot with 70 million.

 

[pr0tege]

Well you also have to take into account what Kinsler's value would be on the open market if he was a free agent this year. With Infante looking at 3/30 and Peralta looking for more than 3/45, Kinsler could have very well got 5/75 on the open market this year maybe more with the Yankee's in the picture if they lose Cano.

 

[johnny2x2x]

Heard some chatter about Choo signing with the Tigers soon. There's the left handed bat we would need. 4.2 WAR last year, career .854 OPS.

 

[tomdalton22]

People need to stop attributing that 30 million payment to Kinsler. That's not how it works. That 30 million was not spent to acquire Kinsler but to dump Fielder's deal. If the Tigers just called people up and asked them to take Fielder and his contract, they probably would have had to chip in more than the 30 million for most teams to do it. The fact that it was only 30 million was because Kinsler's deal is also a bit over the top.

Kinsler does not cost 90+ million, he costs 60+. 30+ gave us the opportunity to dump Fielder. Valuing things like Kinsler costs 90+ is disingenuous and ignores the other realities of the situation.

while I agree with the thought you still have to consider the $30M because of opportunity cost. The money they spend on Kinsler +$30M is money that they can't spend on someone else. It just goes to show how terrible that Fielder contract is. Does ayone that think TX is the first and only team Det called to try and dump Princess?

 

[Thumb]

In the end we still save over 70 million. Can do a lot with 70 million.

4 years from now. But for all we know that saved 70 million will still get spent elsewhere.

 

[Thumb]

Well you also have to take into account what Kinsler's value would be on the open market if he was a free agent this year. With Infante looking at 3/30 and Peralta looking for more than 3/45, Kinsler could have very well got 5/75 on the open market this year maybe more with the Yankee's in the picture if they lose Cano.

Why do we have to take into account what his FA cost might be? Just because he might have gotten another contract that grossly overpaid him does not mean we got a bargain now.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Why do we have to take into account what his FA cost might be? Just because he might have gotten another contract that grossly overpaid him does not mean we got a bargain now.

Well, what would it cost if we went out and got us a 2B? And I'm not thinking Infante, DD made it sound like he wasn't he wasn't even an option. They made a mistake in 2012. They rectified it somewhat IMO.

 

[pr0tege]

Why do we have to take into account what his FA cost might be? Just because he might have gotten another contract that grossly overpaid him does not mean we got a bargain now.

Because IF and at this point it is all speculation we DID bring back Infante at 3/30 to man 2B we would then be on the hook for a combined 34 million for 1B and 2B (Prince and Infante). Now considering we will fill those 2 holes with Castellanos (3B) and Kinsler (2B) for 16 million. We now look at the possibility of signing lets say Choo for AAV of 17 million to put payroll reflections at 33M for Choo and Kinsler instead of 34 million for Fielder and Infante.

 

[mbradley]

People need to stop attributing that 30 million payment to Kinsler. That's not how it works. That 30 million was not spent to acquire Kinsler but to dump Fielder's deal. If the Tigers just called people up and asked them to take Fielder and his contract, they probably would have had to chip in more than the 30 million for most teams to do it. The fact that it was only 30 million was because Kinsler's deal is also a bit over the top.

Kinsler does not cost 90+ million, he costs 60+. 30+ gave us the opportunity to dump Fielder. Valuing things like Kinsler costs 90+ is disingenuous and ignores the other realities of the situation.

Good thing you aren't a corporate accountant. Or maybe you are....every work for Enron? Texas does not trade Kinsler for Fielder straight up. They ask for money to offset Fielder's contract. DD agrees. How is this cost not transferred to Kinsler? How was that money not part of acquiring Kinsler? For payroll listing, even in 2019, it probably will still be listed as Fielder. But it is a cost associated with the deal and as such, must be factored in somewhere. Maybe we should just assign in the Leyland retirement expenses. LOL. Lastly, if DET received a player and another team was paying 1/4 of his salary (even if it was the last 5 of 7 years), would it not be factored into the value of the deal? The money is part of the deal and should be used by both teams in determining the value. Short term, this deal is probably in favor of Texas. Long term will go to DET. Kinsler is a means to an end, but he isn't a savior.

 

[pr0tege]

Now as well let's look at the Run Created stats since that seems to be something brought up here.

Fielder - 100.7
Infante - 66.9

34 Million - Runs Created 167.6



Kinsler - 79.8
Choo - 120.7

33 Million - Runs Created 200.5

Now the Tiger's haven't signed Choo but all signs point that they are NOW players with Choo. This trade yesterday has to play a vital role in the ability TO sign him than this move will improve the Tiger's significantly in 2014.

 

[Thumb]

Now as well let's look at the Run Created stats since that seems to be something brought up here.

Fielder - 100.7
Infante - 66.9

34 Million - Runs Created 167.6



Kinsler - 79.8
Choo - 120.7

33 Million - Runs Created 200.5

Now the Tiger's haven't signed Choo but all signs point that they are NOW players with Choo. This trade yesterday has to play a vital role in the ability TO sign him than this move will improve the Tiger's significantly in 2014.

People keep saying this but I have seen NOTHING that ever indicated we could not sign him before the Fielder trade as well.

You keep assuming facts that are not in evidence.

 

[pr0tege]

Now lets look at the top of the lineup and the ability to get on base in FRONT of Cabrera.

2013 stats

Jackson - .337 OBP
Hunter - .334 OBP

Kinsler - .344 OBP
Choo - .423 OBP

Not the mention the speed addition as well to the top of the lineup.

 

[byco42]

Now lets look at the top of the lineup and the ability to get on base in FRONT of Cabrera.

2013 stats

Jackson - .337 OBP
Hunter - .334 OBP

Kinsler - .344 OBP
Choo - .423 OBP

Not the mention the speed addition as well to the top of the lineup.

Spd metrics:

Excellent 7.0
Great 6.0
Above Average 5.5
Average 4.5
Below Average 4.0
Poor 3.0
Awful 2.0

Jackson Spd: 6.1 Hunter: 4.4
Kinsler Spd: 4.7 Choo: 4.6

No speed addition with a Kinsler/Choo 1-2. Kinsler is a poor base stealer as well. Like Jackson.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I didn't even know that had a speed metric..

 

[Rebbiv]

Now as well let's look at the Run Created stats since that seems to be something brought up here.

Fielder - 100.7
Infante - 66.9

34 Million - Runs Created 167.6



Kinsler - 79.8
Choo - 120.7

33 Million - Runs Created 200.5

Now the Tiger's haven't signed Choo but all signs point that they are NOW players with Choo. This trade yesterday has to play a vital role in the ability TO sign him than this move will improve the Tiger's significantly in 2014.

Talk about being silly. You take two players whose home park are hitter friendly and compare them to two players in park neutral.

Let's just use each players' away stats for the last 3 years. Runs Created per 650 Plate Appearances

Choo 91.67 RC/650
Kinsler 68.73 RC/650

Total = 160.4 RC/650

Fielder 99.22
Infante 81.08

Total = 180.3

20 run difference is about 4 wins. Defensively it is about a wash.

If you were trying to show we are better off with Choo + Kinsler over Fielder + Infante, I don't think you did.

 

[Rebbiv]

Now lets look at the top of the lineup and the ability to get on base in FRONT of Cabrera.

2013 stats

Jackson - .337 OBP
Hunter - .334 OBP

Kinsler - .344 OBP
Choo - .423 OBP

Not the mention the speed addition as well to the top of the lineup.

Last 3 years Away

Kinsler .303 OBP
Choo .373 OBP

Fielder .376 OBP
Infante .319 OBP

Team-wise, our on base would be less

 

[pr0tege]

Need we also mentioned Kinsler ACTUALLY wants to play here? He listed the Tigers at the beginning of the offseason as one of the 10 teams he would like to play for where as Prince was QUICK to wave that no trade clause to get out of here and has already made negative comments about Comerica Park.

 

[grandy]

There a few non-stat/non-money based trade questions I'm curious about,

- How much did Ausmus/DD/Illitch have a say in this?
- Who got the ball rolling?
- Was management concerned about fan reaction in the upcoming season?
- How much of a role did Prince's comments play in the decision?
- Was Prince having any negative effects in the clubhouse? (forgive me if I don't trust player/media quotes)
- Did Prince want to even play here anymore?
- Did management see something in Prince's game that might have indicated decline in the near future (that fans weren't aware of)?

I don't think we'll ever know the answers to most of these, but I can't help but feel like there's more to it than just a "free up money to pay Max and Cabrera" move.