Fielder for Kinsler trade

[turok]

It is quite possible that Fielder's contract might have become much more an albatross for the Tigers very quickly, perhaps as soon as next season. making him even more difficult to move w/o practically paying all but a miniscule portion of his remaining contract. We will never know though, since he is now a rump-ranger, and I am not going to compare what he does @ the plate in that bandbox of a ballpark with what he might have @ CoPa instead. plus taking into consideration his playing in the AL West. However, IF his defense slips to the point that TX has to play him @ DH most if not all of the time, then my suspicions that he will regress/decline on D much faster than was originally predicted by many, being the last 3-4 years of his contract. will be confirmed. The Tigers brass may have traded Fielder just in the "nick"of time in that case. Fielder was quoted by a Dallas Morning News reporter that he was cool with the trade, was ready to move on, and no WS with the Tigers? Hey Prince, then what were the Tigers doing playing the SFG during late October of '12? Probably b/c with your 071/.133/.071/.205 slashline in 15 PAs you might have "missed" it?

 

[pr0tege]

Fielder says of trade. "Trade was somewhat expected."

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2013/11...kinsler-trade-detroit-texas-twitter-interview

That right there should at least give us an understanding that there was something more in play here than just his contract.

 

[Thumb]

Need we also mentioned Kinsler ACTUALLY wants to play here? He listed the Tigers at the beginning of the offseason as one of the 10 teams he would like to play for where as Prince was QUICK to wave that no trade clause to get out of here and has already made negative comments about Comerica Park.

What does any of that have to do with the VALUE of the trade?

 

[pr0tege]

What does any of that have to do with the VALUE of the trade?

What do you mean getting a player that wants to play here instead of someone looking to get out? A whole hell of a lot.

 

[mhughes0021]

you get an upgrade over infante, an upgrade at 1b and a defensive upgrade at 3b and savings to pay a guy like scherzer who wants to stay...what's not to like? Fielder had his chance and sucked....time to move on...even if it meant overpaying for kinsler.

 

[Thumb]

you get an upgrade over infante, an upgrade at 1b and a defensive upgrade at 3b and savings to pay a guy like scherzer who wants to stay...what's not to like? Fielder had his chance and sucked....time to move on...even if it meant overpaying for kinsler.

So many things incorrect with this post I don't know where to start.

 

[kalinecountry]

http://www.thedetroitsportssite.com...-show-versatility-at-plate-and-in-field/40106
Webvideo Ian Kinsler highlights.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Good thing you aren't a corporate accountant. Or maybe you are....every work for Enron? Texas does not trade Kinsler for Fielder straight up. They ask for money to offset Fielder's contract. DD agrees. How is this cost not transferred to Kinsler? How was that money not part of acquiring Kinsler? For payroll listing, even in 2019, it probably will still be listed as Fielder. But it is a cost associated with the deal and as such, must be factored in somewhere. Maybe we should just assign in the Leyland retirement expenses. LOL. Lastly, if DET received a player and another team was paying 1/4 of his salary (even if it was the last 5 of 7 years), would it not be factored into the value of the deal? The money is part of the deal and should be used by both teams in determining the value. Short term, this deal is probably in favor of Texas. Long term will go to DET. Kinsler is a means to an end, but he isn't a savior.

This argument actually is quite easily based on accounting concepts. If Prince by himself, with nothing in return if viewed as a net liability ie, his total value is only roughly 115 million over seven years and his cost is 165 million over seven years, then to trade him would cost the team roughly 50 million.

However, if the Tigers also 'take' Ian Kinsler, who only produces say 45 million to the 65 million cost, the Tigers have essentially removed some of the liability with the return net liability they took.

To summarize, and these are the approximate figures people were talking about, the Tigers probably would have had to pay a team 40-50 million dollars to just take Prince off their hands without getting anything in return. Taking Kinsler back lowered that payment to 30 million. In that case, the 30 million should be viewed as a liability removal penalty and be attributed as such when viewing the deal. They paid 30 million dollars to get out of a liability, not to acquire Kinsler's services. If you want to factor it into team costs throw it on every player in proportion to their salary to the total team salary. Makes 0 sense to say Kinsler costs 90 million.

 

[Rebbiv]

This argument actually is quite easily based on accounting concepts. If Prince by himself, with nothing in return if viewed as a net liability ie, his total value is only roughly 115 million over seven years and his cost is 165 million over seven years, then to trade him would cost the team roughly 50 million.

However, if the Tigers also 'take' Ian Kinsler, who only produces say 45 million to the 65 million cost, the Tigers have essentially removed some of the liability with the return net liability they took.

To summarize, and these are the approximate figures people were talking about, the Tigers probably would have had to pay a team 40-50 million dollars to just take Prince off their hands without getting anything in return. Taking Kinsler back lowered that payment to 30 million. In that case, the 30 million should be viewed as a liability removal penalty and be attributed as such when viewing the deal. They paid 30 million dollars to get out of a liability, not to acquire Kinsler's services. If you want to factor it into team costs throw it on every player in proportion to their salary to the total team salary. Makes 0 sense to say Kinsler costs 90 million.

This is actually quite funny.

 

[Thundercats]

It's funny that the people pissed about this trade are the same ones who were touting Iglesias as a future hall of famer when we aquired him. What's terribly funny is that Dombrowski couldn't even commit to Iglesias being our starting shortstop in an interview last night. Disagreeing with most moves the front office makes, and the moves the majority of people applaud doesn't make you smart. Why not just see how it all works out before acting like the crew of MLB tonight? Most people like this deal, and most people understand it's about money long term and flexibility to make more moves this off-season. We can disagree about everything, which is a popular path for a couple of people, but at this point nobody is right or wrong. We have no idea how Ian Kinsler will play for the Tigers.

 

[Thumb]

It's funny that the people pissed about this trade are the same ones who were touting Iglesias as a future hall of famer when we aquired him. What's terribly funny is that Dombrowski couldn't even commit to Iglesias being our starting shortstop in an interview last night. Disagreeing with most moves the front office makes, and the moves the majority of people applaud doesn't make you smart. Why not just see how it all works out before acting like the crew of MLB tonight? Most people like this deal, and most people understand it's about money long term and flexibility to make more moves this off-season. We can disagree about everything, which is a popular path for a couple of people, but at this point nobody is right or wrong. We have no idea how Ian Kinsler will play for the Tigers.

Can you link a single person saying Iglesias was a future HOF? Because I can't recall a single person saying that. People did say gold glover, which is not at all far fetched.

 

[Thundercats]

Can you link a single person saying Iglesias was a future HOF? Because I can't recall a single person saying that. People did say gold glover, which is not at all far fetched.

Not far fetched, but his offense will make it tough for him to get starts everyday to qualify.

 

[xer0]

Not far fetched, but his offense will make it tough for him to get starts everyday to qualify.

so where's the link for the HoF quotes?

 

[Mitchrapp]

'Cats still upset about the trade for Iggy? Lol.

 

[tigersofjustice]

This is actually quite funny.

I guess complete accuracy amuses you then, or not understanding basic value or accounting concepts is amusing.

 

[Thumb]

I guess complete accuracy amuses you then, or not understanding basic value or accounting concepts is amusing.

:lmao:

 

[Rebbiv]

It's funny that the people pissed about this trade are the same ones who were touting Iglesias as a future hall of famer when we aquired him. What's terribly funny is that Dombrowski couldn't even commit to Iglesias being our starting shortstop in an interview last night. Disagreeing with most moves the front office makes, and the moves the majority of people applaud doesn't make you smart. Why not just see how it all works out before acting like the crew of MLB tonight? Most people like this deal, and most people understand it's about money long term and flexibility to make more moves this off-season. We can disagree about everything, which is a popular path for a couple of people, but at this point nobody is right or wrong. We have no idea how Ian Kinsler will play for the Tigers.

OK...read carefully, I know that can be difficult for you sometimes.

I am not against the deal of trading Fiedler and fully understand it now offers payroll flexibility later on. I will debate at what point and how much that actually is. I have stated basically all of this before. That is not what is bothering you

I am/was upset that we obtained a player that will most likely become part of the problem. I.E. This team's inability to generate offense on the road. I have yet to see anyone refute that claim. Most are touting this trade because they think Kinsler is an All Star/Elite 2B. That is easily done by just looking at the overall stats. And adding the fact that this offers $70 Mil savings, mostly after 2018 does not make Kinsler more attractive.

I imagine when most heard about the Fielder signing, they were all giddy. They were even elated after he put up great numbers in 2012. Now, those same people, the ones that touted that signing, are the ones proclaiming how great this trade was and could not wait to get rid of Fielder. They are probably even the same people that touted how it was great to give Brandon Inge a contract extension.

Just because the vast majority believe ones way, does not make it the "RIGHT" way. I do not base my opinions on popular believes.

I base my MLB player opinions based on statistics. Statistics are a historical accounting of what has happened and can be predictive in nature, depending on the one's used. All players, in a friendly or park neutral setting, will have better stats at home. So the comparisons should be based on Away Stats, negating any park biases. Anyone that has followed me knows I generally use Away stats and which ones. I do not flip flop around. I dislike the players that have poor road splits (relative to their position) and/or poor walk rates. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

No one could have predicted Max Scherzer's 2013 season. You cannot predict flukes or when a player will have a career year. But long term (more than a year), there generally is evidence (minor stats or MLB stats) that can help make educated guesses. Odds are, 2014 Scherzer will be somewhere between 2013 and 2012. Well, prior to this trade, odds are that 2014 Fielder was going to be somewhere between 2012 and 2013 Fielder. Didn't we sell low?

Sticky this thread and let's visit this in a year or two.

 

[Rebbiv]

I guess complete accuracy amuses you then, or not understanding basic value or accounting concepts is amusing.

Yeah OK. Complete accuracy is a moronic phrase. It is either accurate, or it isn't. What would make it complete?

So let's look at it your way for a minute.


Let's see if we can make this easier for other's the follow, based on your valuation principle.

I own a $165,000 house. It's value is only $115,000. And I have 7 years to pay it off. You have $65,000 house that is only valued at $45,000. And there is either 4 or 5 years left to pay. I give you $30,000 dollars to trade houses. I now have a $65,000 house and I do not have to account for the $30,000, because my previous house I owed more than it's value?

OK...That $65,000 house's value ($45,000) did not change by this deal. It is still a $65,000 house. But, my costs associated are more than just what is left owed on it. That $30,000 is now somewhat tied to that $65,000 house, but just for you. If you now sold the $65,000 house, it is still just a $65,000?

Also, valuations from one year to the next can fluctuate. Next year, that $165,000 becomes $141,000 and could be valued at $130,000. And the $65,000 becomes $49,000 and have a value of $19,000. So where does it leave that $30,000?

Let's try using automobiles instead. I want to get out from under my $165,000 vehicle. I pay $30,000 to get out of the contract, but have to buy a $65,000 car in the process. The $30,000 is now linked to that $65,000 car, but just for me. If I get rid of the $65,000 car, it is still just a $65,000 car to the next buyer.

Valuations does not factor into costs. It might justify the cost, but it doesn't change to amount that needs to be accounted for. The $30,000 is still a payroll cost, regardless how you spin it. And tax laws will mandate accounting for it in your payroll. You can assign Fielder's name to it, even though he is no longer an employee. Got it. But indirectly, it now is part of having Kinsler on this team.

 

[tomdalton22]

People keep saying this but I have seen NOTHING that ever indicated we could not sign him before the Fielder trade as well.

You keep assuming facts that are not in evidence.

IF they would have signed Choo, signed a 2B and filled BP needs without getting rid of Fielder's salary they would have very likely went over the luxury tax threshold.

 

[Thundercats]

OK...read carefully, I know that can be difficult for you sometimes.

I am not against the deal of trading Fiedler and fully understand it now offers payroll flexibility later on. I will debate at what point and how much that actually is. I have stated basically all of this before. That is not what is bothering you

I am/was upset that we obtained a player that will most likely become part of the problem. I.E. This team's inability to generate offense on the road. I have yet to see anyone refute that claim. Most are touting this trade because they think Kinsler is an All Star/Elite 2B. That is easily done by just looking at the overall stats. And adding the fact that this offers $70 Mil savings, mostly after 2018 does not make Kinsler more attractive.

I imagine when most heard about the Fielder signing, they were all giddy. They were even elated after he put up great numbers in 2012. Now, those same people, the ones that touted that signing, are the ones proclaiming how great this trade was and could not wait to get rid of Fielder. They are probably even the same people that touted how it was great to give Brandon Inge a contract extension.

Just because the vast majority believe ones way, does not make it the "RIGHT" way. I do not base my opinions on popular believes.

I base my MLB player opinions based on statistics. Statistics are a historical accounting of what has happened and can be predictive in nature, depending on the one's used. All players, in a friendly or park neutral setting, will have better stats at home. So the comparisons should be based on Away Stats, negating any park biases. Anyone that has followed me knows I generally use Away stats and which ones. I do not flip flop around. I dislike the players that have poor road splits (relative to their position) and/or poor walk rates. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

No one could have predicted Max Scherzer's 2013 season. You cannot predict flukes or when a player will have a career year. But long term (more than a year), there generally is evidence (minor stats or MLB stats) that can help make educated guesses. Odds are, 2014 Scherzer will be somewhere between 2013 and 2012. Well, prior to this trade, odds are that 2014 Fielder was going to be somewhere between 2012 and 2013 Fielder. Didn't we sell low?

Sticky this thread and let's visit this in a year or two.

Anyone that thinks Kinsler is a true all-star is kidding themselves, but he's still a solid player who can offer good defense and high OBP at the top of the lineup. Fielder is better overall, but if this trade allows us to nab either Ellsbury or Choo, then it's a masterpiece of a deal. That $30 million down the road can probably be offset by Hunter and Victor's contracts going away after this year. A new DH wouldn't cost nearly as much as Victor, nor should it cost so much for an average right fielder not named Torii Hunter. I just don't understand the point in debating the players right now. This deal is not just Kinsler for Prince. DD is going to turn this into Prince for Kinsler and more. Nobody should think Kinsler is a great player. He gets on base though, regardless of home or away.