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Game 161 Tigers vs. white sox September 29, 2019

lonesometiger said:
Starting there clocks without an offence? And without a bullpen would stick them into a losing mental mind set that could result in trading them away for a career change that could get nothing in return.
When they are brought up the Tigers have to invest into at least two free agents that will impack the offence. And a heathly Cabrera is a must. And fcol a bull pen that can do the job.

BTW Mize would be one of the rooks. Could be Boyd's replacement, or Zimmermans should he need replacement, or a healthy free agent should one not be found/become injuried like our two last ones. Really that has to fall on AA.
Click to expand...

So we wait until they are 26-27 because we aren't getting an offense for some time. Delaying arbitration for a year by bring them up after 3 weeks sure but waiting for offense. No.
 
So we burn them up now and they walk free agent just when the offence shows up. The Tigers are in the famous catch22. either way they are caught. At some point they have to invest in some balance free agents. Most teams build the offence first and trade for pitching. Tigers are doing it backwards. Time will tell but some of us fans are getting short in the time race.
 
lonesometiger said:
So we burn them up now and they walk free agent just when the offence shows up. The Tigers are in the famous catch22. either way they are caught. At some point they have to invest in some balance free agents. Most teams build the offence first and trade for pitching. Tigers are doing it backwards. Time will tell but some of us fans are getting short in the time race.
Click to expand...

If that's what happens that's what happens. You don't wait 4 years more because of no offense. That's just dumb.

"some of us fans are getting short in the time race." Yet you want our better ml pitchers to stay down until they're 30?
 
Mitchrapp said:
If that's what happens that's what happens. You don't wait 4 years more because of no offense. That's just dumb.

"some of us fans are getting short in the time race." Yet you want our better ml pitchers to stay down until they're 30?
Click to expand...

Do you not read the entire post. I said they/Tigers will have to{" invest in free agents"} to make this work or else yea wait or trade them. Those are the choices. There are three choices 1 wait, not good,2 buy free agents, hasn't worked, 3 trade them better get better than they gotten before, and that takes time too. Tigers are in a bad position.

AT some point free agents will have to be invested the real problem is when. Bring up the pitching in 2020 take the hit and draft again trade better and then buy one in 2021, with Zimmerman money. And then another or two in 2022. Get Cabrera ready for a run in 2022 and 2023 his 32 m's seasons. Tigers will need attendance to be up to support that 32 m's. BTW he still got 30+30+32+32+8 guaranteed =132 M's
 
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Rebbiv said:
You play them when they are ready, regardless of the team around them. Doing otherwise would be dysfunctional.
Click to expand...

Playing them with the out fit they have now would be dysfunctional. But they have very little choice.

Remember back, back, back, Mr. I asked what would it take to make Tigers better. The answer he got was get smarter thinking personal. Au I think that could be a start with current team again. Tigers strikeout too much, play poor defense, have poor bull pen, there player devilment in next to nonexistent. And really after there 1st round draft pick there drafting skills are awful.

They have so many places where they have to improve. I'm beginning to think that there problem, they are just over whelm.
 
lonesometiger said:
Do you not read the entire post. I said they/Tigers will have to{" invest in free agents"} to make this work or else yea wait or trade them. Those are the choices. There are three choices 1 wait, not good,2 buy free agents, hasn't worked, 3 trade them better get better than they gotten before, and that takes time too. Tigers are in a bad position.

AT some point free agents will have to be invested the real problem is when. Bring up the pitching in 2020 take the hit and draft again trade better and then buy one in 2021, with Zimmerman money. And then another or two in 2022. Get Cabrera ready for a run in 2022 and 2023 his 32 m's seasons. Tigers will need attendance to be up to support that 32 m's. BTW he still got 30+30+32+32+8 guaranteed =132 M's
Click to expand...

They won't though that's the point. Not with Miggy's and Zimmerman's contract. It won't look much different than this year and even then stars aren't coming here unless they go back to $180m which they won't.
 
There are two types of mid-market MLB franchises: the St Louis Cardinals and the Detroit Tigers. The former are shrewd evaluators and developers of talent, who rarely if ever have fielded losing teams 2 years in a row, who have had many, many, many competitive, contending, division winning, WS contending, and championship-winning teams over the vast majority of the past 50 years. They also haven't fielded a 100+ loss team in nearly a century.

The latter has fielded losing teams much more often than not, and very infrequently contending, division-winning,WS contending, and only once a championship team over the past 50 years. They averaged a 100+ loss team about once per decade. They are very piss-poor evaluators and developers of talent.

One has once again won their Central division title and will be playing next month in the postseason. The other has just finished its third consecutive mega-losing season in humiliating and historic laughing-stock of all MLB fashion. The prospects of even losing only as many games as the prior two years next season appear to be very remote.

So whose fanbase has gotten the shaft for their loyal support, and whose has been richly rewarded?

Tigers' braintrust theme song for the next decade could very well be "What A Fool Believes".
 
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By my estimate, DET is at least 5 years from being a .500 club and 7-10 years before they are a playoff team. Not promoting someone like Mize just pushes that timeline back another year or two. You cannot wait for the "perfect storm" to promote them to the MLB roster. And yes, he is a free agent at 6 years. But that does not mean you cannot sign him or Manning to a team-friendly contract extension after 2-3 years.

They are a few ways in building a championship MLB team, but the one theme is building young talent from within. DET has proven over and over again that they suck at this. Rarely does a young position player make it at the MLB level with bad strike zone discipline (walk rate) and rarely do young pitcher excel with a high walk rate. Only DET, with their worthless analytics, acquire and/or promote players with bad strike zone discipline. Or they tell young players..."BE AGGRESSIVE AT THE PLATE"...which then screws them all up.

Career Minor League Walk Rates (MLB Rate):

H. Castro 27.4 PA/BB (42.1 PA/BB)
D. Lugo 27.1 PA/BB (27.7 PA/BB)
R. Rodriguez 25.0 PA/BB (21.7 PA/BB)
W. Castro 20.0 PA/BB (18.3 PA/BB)

B. Dixon 18.7 PA/BB (20.1 PA/BB)
J. Hicks 18.1 PA/BB (17.8 PA/BB)
J. Harrison 17.0 PA/BB (26.1 PA/BB)
V. Reyes 16.1 PA/BB (26.8 PA/BB)
D. Peterson 15.1 PA/BB (24.5 PA/BB)
Mercer 14.8 PA/BB (17.9 PA/BB)

N. Castellanos 13.3 PA/BB (16.3 PA/BB)
M. Cabrera 13.2 PA/BB (11.1 PA/BB)
J. Jones 13.1 PA/BB (16.9 PA/BB)
G. Greiner 11.4 PA/BB (11.3 PA/BB)
G. Beckham 11.0 PA/BB (14.5 PA/BB)


N. Goodrum 9.6 PA/BB (11.3 PA/BB)
J. Candelario 9.5 PA/BB (9.6 PA/BB)
J. Rogers 9.3 PA/BB (8.6 PA/BB)
T. Demeritte 8.5 PA/BB (13.2 PA/BB)
C. Stewart 8.1 PA/BB (11.8 PA/BB)
D. Cameron = 10.0 PA/BB

The top 4 this year at DET:

1061 PA 30 BB 261 SO .253 BAVG .263 OBP .394 SLG .657 OPS

Now, some players have value because of their defense. Others, have no redeeming quality except they are young and they have no cost associated with them.

In my opinion, the players with the best walk rate (Rogers, Demeritte, Cameron, etc), also have the greatest upside. Even Candelario, with the "right" hitting instructor, could be a valuable MLB ballplayer. McClendon has ruined Candelario. He is the type of player who leaves DET and catches on with another team and becomes what he should have been.
 
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kalinecountry said:
https://www.mlive.com/tigers/2019/09/on-final-pitch-of-2019-tigers-set-new-strikeout-record.html
On final pitch of 2019, Tigers set new strikeout record.
Mlive
Click to expand...

From your link:


"Hitting coach Lloyd McClendon, who has seven seasons of managerial experience, will take over as bench coach."

"Joe Vavra, another longtime Gardenhire assistant, will become the new hitting coach after serving as quality control coach for the last two seasons

Not that I am unhappy that Llegendary Lloyd is no longer Tigers hitting coach, (I am actually thrilled) but who the fuck is Joe Vavra?

From his Wiki page:

"Vavra was selected by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 1982 amateur player draft out of college. He played five years in the Dodger farm system making it to the AAA level in 1986. He never played in the major leagues"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vavra

Awesome...I am sure that his extensive All-Star spangled career batting vs MLB pitching will serve him well in his new position...:ashamed:
 
turok said:
From your link:


"Hitting coach Lloyd McClendon, who has seven seasons of managerial experience, will take over as bench coach."

"Joe Vavra, another longtime Gardenhire assistant, will become the new hitting coach after serving as quality control coach for the last two seasons

Not that I am unhappy that Llegendary Lloyd is no longer Tigers hitting coach, (I am actually thrilled) but who the fuck is Joe Vavra?

From his Wiki page:

"Vavra was selected by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 1982 amateur player draft out of college. He played five years in the Dodger farm system making it to the AAA level in 1986. He never played in the major leagues"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vavra

Awesome...I am sure that his extensive All-Star spangled career batting vs MLB pitching will serve him well in his new position...:ashamed:
Click to expand...

You don't need to have been a good hitter in order to be a good hitting coach.

From the link you posted. "On October 27, 2005, Vavra was named the Twins' hitting coach. During Vavra's tenure in Minnesota, the Twins have consistently ranked among the best in the league for both individual and team hitting stats."

I looked up MN's team OBP during his tenure.
Major league ranks
7
25
4
5
6
25

I have no idea if he is any good but I think he will be better than what they had.
 
tomdalton22 said:
You don't need to have been a good hitter in order to be a good hitting coach.

From the link you posted. "On October 27, 2005, Vavra was named the Twins' hitting coach. During Vavra's tenure in Minnesota, the Twins have consistently ranked among the best in the league for both individual and team hitting stats."

I looked up MN's team OBP during his tenure.
Major league ranks
7
25
4
5
6
25

I have no idea if he is any good but I think he will be better than what they had.
Click to expand...

I was just being sarcastic and certainly am not expecting any significant offensive improvement of note next year, no matter who their batting coach would be.

b/c if their prospects get promoted from AA or AAA to the majors with even halfway decent plate discipline, odds are that its only b/c it was the result of their coming from other ballclubs in trades, waiver acquisitions, or Rule 5s. They likely won't be prospects obtained from being drafted by the Tigers below the first round or two.

So if a batting coach @ the major league level still has to teach hitting fundamentals and not just help with minor tweaks and fixes, then they shouldn't be up to begin with.

I have noticed though. that you spend noticeably more of your time here on DSF, sniping other members' posts, and not so much just posting your own separate comments, so I tend to take your replies w/a grain of salt.
 
turok said:
I was just being sarcastic and certainly am not expecting any significant offensive improvement of note next year, no matter who their batting coach would be.

b/c if their prospects get promoted from AA or AAA to the majors with even halfway decent plate discipline, odds are that its only b/c it was the result of their coming from other ballclubs in trades, waiver acquisitions, or Rule 5s. They likely won't be prospects obtained from being drafted by the Tigers below the first round or two.

So if a batting coach @ the major league level still has to teach hitting fundamentals and not just help with minor tweaks and fixes, then they shouldn't be up to begin with.

I have noticed though. that you spend noticeably more of your time here on DSF, sniping other members' posts, and not so much just posting your own separate comments, so I tend to take your replies w/a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

sarcasm is pretty difficult to pick up on a message board.

There are a lot of people here that need to be corrected...I take it upon myself to help keep them in line (sarcasm)
 
https://totallytigers.wordpress.com/2019/10/05/question-of-the-week-37/
QUESTION OF THE WEEK.
Totally Tigers

It?s time again to hear from our readers! Today is the day to let us know what you?re thinking on a selected topic.

Sunday is the one day of the week where we open up the comment parameters for you, so you can get those juices flowing.

Comments on THIS DAY ONLY can be expanded to a maximum of 8 sentences.

We can?t wait to get your thoughts on the following topic:

Which ex-Tiger currently playing in the big leagues would you most want to return to Detroit? Why?
 
I had a nightmare last night that the Tigers were still playing and the 2019 regular season had not yet ended.
 
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