Jeffrey Epstein matter reopened... going to get ugly

[byco42]

"We abuse and molest children at rates lower than the rest of the general population."

- Great marketing pitch for an institution that claims to represent god on Earth, and insists it's the authority for moral conduct (if indeed it is even true that rates of abuse in the catholic church are lower than other places...) .

The Church is presently infiltrated with unholy men seeking to destroy her from the inside out. This is not new news; it's been occurring since the middle of the 19th century in a steady progression that is culminating in its present-day exposure-purging.

The Church does not "'represent' God on earth" ... that's how I'd imagine Michael Scott would try to summarize the purpose of the Church, which is the organic repository of Faith and Truth, established by Christ Himself, and he is still present in Her, and will be until the end of time.

 

[Michchamp]

...

The Church does not "'represent' God on earth" ... that's how I'd imagine Michael Scott would try to summarize the purpose of the Church, which is the organic repository of Faith and Truth, established by Christ Himself, and he is still present in Her, and will be until the end of time.

You say po-tay-to

I say po-tah-to.

 

[Gulo Blue]

You say po-tay-to

I say po-tah-to.

If there's a distinguishing characteristic here, I think it's claims of authority. Who gets to decide what to tell people is or isn't God's word?

 

[Michchamp]

If there's a distinguishing characteristic here, I think it's claims of authority. Who gets to decide what to tell people is or isn't God's word?

Friedrich Nietzsche. But he's dead.

 

[byco42]

If there's a distinguishing characteristic here, I think it's claims of authority. Who gets to decide what to tell people is or isn't God's word?

The Church does not "tell" anyone anything. It informs what Christ Himself revealed to the world. Christ is the head of the Church; not any person.

 

[Michchamp]

The Church does not "tell" anyone anything. It informs what Christ Himself revealed to the world. Christ is the head of the Church; not any person.

they used to be a lot more coercive about this. ever heard of the Inquisition? Counter-reformation?

it's just that civil authorities decided to take the Church's "stick" away in the 1700's.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The Church does not "tell" anyone anything. It informs what Christ Himself revealed to the world. Christ is the head of the Church; not any person.

What's the difference between 'informs' and 'tells'?

 

[byco42]

What's the difference between 'informs' and 'tells'?

Free will.

 

[byco42]

they used to be a lot more coercive about this. ever heard of the Inquisition? Counter-reformation?

it's just that civil authorities decided to take the Church's "stick" away in the 1700's.

Everyone worships something or someone, MC. I choose to worship the One who created me.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Free will.

I don't follow. On who's part? The informer or informee?

 

[Gulo Blue]

And which case involves free will and which one doesn't?

 

[byco42]

And which case involves free will and which one doesn't?

"Tell" to me, indicates that the teller is the source of the information.

"Inform" is more passive and indicates that someone is conveying what they believe to be true, based on what they have learned, leaving it up to the informed to decide.

Maybe "teach" is a better, more accurate term:

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things so ever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you."

"Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Gulo Blue]

"Tell" to me, indicates that the teller is the source of the information.

"Inform" is more passive and indicates that someone is conveying what they believe to be true, based on what they have learned, leaving it up to the informed to decide.

Maybe "teach" is a better, more accurate term:

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things so ever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you."

"Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Ok. So not really a free will issue. Like if I teach math, I'm not the source of the math, but there's no suspension of free will.


I think that's too passive a read on the Catholic Church. If there was never any authority claimed by anyone, how could there have ever been any mistakes? If I teach math wrong, I'm going to get corrected. I'd have to assert some sort of authority to get people to follow me in my error.

 

[Gulo Blue]

...or is a claim of authority a mistake some of us make sometime?

 

[byco42]

Ok. So not really a free will issue. Like if I teach math, I'm not the source of the math, but there's no suspension of free will.

If you tell me that I am obligated to learn it, that suspends my free will.

I think that's too passive a read on the Catholic Church. If there was never any authority claimed by anyone, how could there have ever been any mistakes?

People are not infallible. Christ claims the authority, and He has delegated it to the Church.

"He (Christ) said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."​

John 20 - 21:23

If I teach math wrong, I'm going to get corrected. I'd have to assert some sort of authority to get people to follow me in my error.

There is no law that compels people to be or remain Catholic, but the Church perpetually invites all to become so. There are no errors in Church teaching; only disagreements and differences in interpretation, which is of our own doing. (Meaning between Catholics). Using the math analogy -- people can get math wrong; it does not change the correct answer.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If you tell me that I am obligated to learn it, that suspends my free will.

Only if you accept my authority.

 

[byco42]

Only if you accept my authority.

Accepting your authority is an act of free will.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There is no law that compels people to be or remain Catholic, but the Church perpetually invites all to become so. There are no errors in Church teaching; only disagreements and differences in interpretation, which is of our own doing. (Meaning between Catholics). Using the math analogy -- people can get math wrong; it does not change the correct answer.

People get math wrong and make mistakes and Mars rovers crash into Mars and it's the people fault, not the math. I think we've got a good analogy there.



But there's also a power structure and people acting in the world deciding who's version gets taught where there are disagreements. Any group that takes action in the world follows some earthly authority. It's delegated authority in John 20 - 21:23, as you said, but it's authority.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Accepting your authority is an act of free will.

So your free will isn't really suspended then.

 

[byco42]

So your free will isn't really suspended then.

If you threaten to fine me and jail me because I refuse to send my kids to public school, my free will is suspended, along with that of my children.