Justin Upton kicking ass in Atlanta

[Mitchrapp]

Yes, Avila was/is a fucking bum outside 1 fluke year. Saber dorks like him because he draws walks which is a very overrated stat, if he didn't draw the occassional useless walk he'd be out of the league by now. He's not impressive defensively either and the success of our pitching staff he had almost nothing to do with. Good riddance.

Not just the walks. Based on his game calling and pitch location he was like 19 times better than McCann.

 

[Thumb]

LOL @ walks overrated.

 

[jdeb]

Not just the walks. Based on his game calling and pitch location he was like 19 times better than McCann.

19 times? OK, I agree Avila was better at it but one thing to consider is how much time he spent with the staff. That was McCann's first year, give the guy some time. Overall, McCann is the better catcher and showed a great deal of improvement in game management as the year went on. The future is pretty bright for this guy and he has shown some leadership qualities to boot, AKA, getting into Iggy's grill for being lazy.

 

[byco42]

LOL @ walks overrated.

Whomever said that walks are overrated are right. Look at this list of top-30 replacement players in career walks.

1. Barry Bonds (22) 2558 L
2. Rickey Henderson+ (25) 2190 R
3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 2062 L
4. Ted Williams+ (19) 2021 L
5. Joe Morgan+ (22) 1865 L
6. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 1845 L
7. Jim Thome (22) 1747 L
8. Mickey Mantle+ (18) 1733 B
9. Mel Ott+ (22) 1708 L
10. Frank Thomas+ (19) 1667 R
11. Eddie Yost (18) 1614 R
12. Darrell Evans (21) 1605 L
13. Stan Musial+ (22) 1599 L
14. Pete Rose (24) 1566 B
15. Harmon Killebrew+ (22) 1559 R
16. Chipper Jones (19) 1512 B
17. Lou Gehrig+ (17) 1508 L
18. Mike Schmidt+ (18) 1507 R
19. Eddie Collins+ (25) 1499 L
20. Bobby Abreu (18) 1476 L
21. Gary Sheffield (22) 1475 R
22. Willie Mays+ (22) 1464 R
23. Jimmie Foxx+ (20) 1452 R
24. Eddie Mathews+ (17) 1444 L
25. Frank Robinson+ (21) 1420 R
26. Wade Boggs+ (18) 1412 L
27. Hank Aaron+ (23) 1402 R
28. Jeff Bagwell (15) 1401 R
29. Dwight Evans (20) 1391 R
30. Tris Speaker+ (22) 1381

 

[Mitchrapp]

19 times? OK, I agree Avila was better at it but one thing to consider is how much time he spent with the staff. That was McCann's first year, give the guy some time. Overall, McCann is the better catcher and showed a great deal of improvement in game management as the year went on. The future is pretty bright for this guy and he has shown some leadership qualities to boot, AKA, getting into Iggy's grill for being lazy.

It wasn't like he was 19. Baseball is a sport you learn stuff early. And last year he wasn't the better catcher. All he was good at, offensively, was vs LHP. I know people dismiss the game calling/manager/pitch calling aspect but it's the most important a C should have.

 

[jdeb]

It wasn't like he was 19. Baseball is a sport you learn stuff early. And last year he wasn't the better catcher. All he was good at, offensively, was vs LHP. I know people dismiss the game calling/manager/pitch calling aspect but it's the most important a C should have.

Well, McCann threw out over 40% base stealers, no errors, and only 3 past balls. He was regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the AL last year, pretty good for a rookie. His play calling will only improve with experience.

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[Mitchrapp]

Well, McCann threw out over 40% base stealers, no errors, and only 3 past balls. He was regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the AL last year, pretty good for a rookie. His play calling will only improve with experience.

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I hope so. I would imagine he'd be better just by accident because there's no where to go but up.

End of the day, imo, he wasn't any better at the plate than Avila so to be similar (meaning as good), he needs to improve a lot. I really think he's just a platoon player..

 

[jdeb]

I hope so. I would imagine he'd be better just by accident because there's no where to go but up.

End of the day, imo, he wasn't any better at the plate than Avila so to be similar (meaning as good), he needs to improve a lot. I really think he's just a platoon player..

Well the Tigers are pretty high on him and I foresee him being the starting catcher for at least the next 4-5 years. Additionally, we really do not have anybody in the minors that is being talked about as a starting catcher.

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[Thumb]

Well, McCann threw out over 40% base stealers, no errors, and only 3 past balls. He was regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the AL last year, pretty good for a rookie. His play calling will only improve with experience.

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By whom?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/order/false

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/league/al/sort/defWARBR/order/true

 

[Mitchrapp]

Well the Tigers are pretty high on him and I foresee him being the starting catcher for at least the next 4-5 years. Additionally, we really do not have anybody in the minors that is being talked about as a starting catcher.

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If he's the starting C for 4-5 years, Avila better be fired in year 2 and M.I. taken to a hospital.

 

[tomdalton22]

By whom?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/order/false

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/league/al/sort/defWARBR/order/true

Some posters on this board?

 

[Rebbiv]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...5&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

9th of 13 MLB in defensive rankings in 2015.

As far as throwing out runners....he started out the season 13 of 26, 50.0% and ended with 15 of the last 43, or 34.9% (28 of 69, 40.6%). The 34.9% is more along league average. I will also point out that you steal bases on the pitcher.

Next...pitch framing...

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

James McCann was dead last for all MLB catchers in pitch framing.

Saltalamacchia isn't much better and he was dead last in 2014.

Pitch framing shortcomings of these two might be the tell tale sign of what to expect in 2016.

Based all the data, McCann was hardly average when it came to defense as a catcher. His offense wasn't much better, especially when looking at his 2nd half falloff (when he became the primary starter).

 

[brewer229]

Whomever said that walks are overrated are right. Look at this list of top-30 replacement players in career walks.

1. Barry Bonds (22) 2558 L
2. Rickey Henderson+ (25) 2190 R
3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 2062 L
4. Ted Williams+ (19) 2021 L
5. Joe Morgan+ (22) 1865 L
6. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 1845 L
7. Jim Thome (22) 1747 L
8. Mickey Mantle+ (18) 1733 B
9. Mel Ott+ (22) 1708 L
10. Frank Thomas+ (19) 1667 R
11. Eddie Yost (18) 1614 R
12. Darrell Evans (21) 1605 L
13. Stan Musial+ (22) 1599 L
14. Pete Rose (24) 1566 B
15. Harmon Killebrew+ (22) 1559 R
16. Chipper Jones (19) 1512 B
17. Lou Gehrig+ (17) 1508 L
18. Mike Schmidt+ (18) 1507 R
19. Eddie Collins+ (25) 1499 L
20. Bobby Abreu (18) 1476 L
21. Gary Sheffield (22) 1475 R
22. Willie Mays+ (22) 1464 R
23. Jimmie Foxx+ (20) 1452 R
24. Eddie Mathews+ (17) 1444 L
25. Frank Robinson+ (21) 1420 R
26. Wade Boggs+ (18) 1412 L
27. Hank Aaron+ (23) 1402 R
28. Jeff Bagwell (15) 1401 R
29. Dwight Evans (20) 1391 R
30. Tris Speaker+ (22) 1381

So great hitters that have long careers walk a lot...that's the point?

Walks can be valuable, never more valuable than a hit. At the same time Walks could be less valuable than an out (sacrifice).

So I will lose it's how valuable you rate them determines if they are overrated.

But a list of great hitters walking a lot I dont think proves much.

 

[nsonnett14]

Oh god , more tools talking about how another one of our players that is good , sucks . James McCann is considered a bright spot on this ball club , just a rookie last year he showed he can handle catching everyday and be a weapon behind the dish throwing guys out . And is no slouch at bat .

I would take McCann any day , all day over that worthless scrub Avila . Oh yea i forgot , were talking about freaking pitch framing !! LMAO idiots...oh yea and because McCann had a nice % of throwing guys out , all a sudden that means nothing because you steal bases on pitchers .

 

[nsonnett14]

So great hitters that have long careers walk a lot...that's the point?

Walks can be valuable, never more valuable than a hit. At the same time Walks could be less valuable than an out (sacrifice).

So I will lose it's how valuable you rate them determines if they are overrated.

But a list of great hitters walking a lot I dont think proves much.

LOL , was thinking the same thing . WTF does this list prove ?? But im not allowed to voice my difference of opinion or else i will get banned again , so thank you for saying what i was thinking .

 

[Rebbiv]

So great hitters that have long careers walk a lot...that's the point?

Walks can be valuable, never more valuable than a hit. At the same time Walks could be less valuable than an out (sacrifice).

So I will lose it's how valuable you rate them determines if they are overrated.

But a list of great hitters walking a lot I dont think proves much.

http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902event.html

No, walks are not less valuable than an out. I am not sure where you would get this. Read the following:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1639658-explaining-why-the-bunt-is-foolish-in-todays-mlb

As far as walks go..they are a sign of plate discipline and strike zone awareness. Players who walk at a greater percentage, generally have higher on base percentage. Meaning they don't make an out, which should be a good thing. It also means they are causing the pitcher to work more and that they aren't necessarily swinging at the pitcher's pitch. A player's contact rate (BAVG) can change during the season or even over a career. The skill can atrophy with age or even injury. Plate discipline and strike zone awareness does not change by physical factors, just mental. Hitting a baseball can go into a "slump", but drawing a walk rarely does, unless the player is pressing.

Just because Cal Ripken had a lot of walks (or even Home Runs) doesn't mean he was good at taking a walk. He wasn't, he just played everyday at got a few more Plate Appearances per season over the next guy. From 1984 to 1993 (10 years), Cal Ripken averaged 710 Plate Appearances per season. That is a lot for a #3-4 hitter, but maybe not for an everyday leadoff hitter.

Yes there is a difference between counting stats and rate stats. Giving a list of all time walk leaders is probably not a good example. Yet, it would be no different than listing the all time home run leaders or runs batted in leaders.

Player A = .264 BAVG .296 OBP 17 GIDP (RC/650 = 62.6)

Player B = .191 BAVG .333 OBP 4 GIDP (RC/650 = 57.9)

Clearly Player A is better for this year only, but by very little when looking at run expectancy based on performance. Neither was above average. Player A cannot take a walk and his minor league numbers bare this out. For him to have an acceptable On Base Percentage, he would have to be a .300 hitter year in and year out. That is also not in his skillset.

 

[brewer229]

http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902event.html

No, walks are not less valuable than an out. I am not sure where you would get this. Read the following:

.

I can think of many situations where taking a out in exchange for a guaranteed run would be far more valuable than a walk and no run.

 

[Rebbiv]

I can think of many situations where taking a out in exchange for a guaranteed run would be far more valuable than a walk and no run.

There is no guarantees with an out. What assurance would you have? The 2015 Detroit Tigers ran themselves out of many an inning.

But I get what you are implying. Bottom of the 9th. Runner on 3rd with less than 2 outs and you need a run. Putting the ball in the air to the outfield is preferred to win or extend the game. But a walk in that situation does not change anything, except it increases the run expectancy.

 

[gotime909]

There is no guarantees with an out. What assurance would you have? The 2015 Detroit Tigers ran themselves out of many an inning.

But I get what you are implying. Bottom of the 9th. Runner on 3rd with less than 2 outs and you need a run. Putting the ball in the air to the outfield is preferred to win or extend the game. But a walk in that situation does not change anything, except it increases the run expectancy.

If first base is open, a walk puts a double play in the equation

 

[brewer229]

There is no guarantees with an out. What assurance would you have? The 2015 Detroit Tigers ran themselves out of many an inning.

But I get what you are implying. Bottom of the 9th. Runner on 3rd with less than 2 outs and you need a run. Putting the ball in the air to the outfield is preferred to win or extend the game. But a walk in that situation does not change anything, except it increases the run expectancy.

The game is not played in a vacuum. Getting the run in and winning is more valuable than getting a guy on base and having a slightly better chance at winning than you did before. One is a known result the other is a probability.

In that situation getting an out turned out to be more valuable than a walk. You can't say otherwise, the goal is to win. That's why all stats are great, but none tell a whole story.