Kiper 2.0

[cheeno]

Anyone who is over 6' and runs higher than a 4.3 gets talked about being made into a safety. : The guy was the number one corner on the number one college defense of all time, can press the shit out of anyone and provide run support, and win jump balls. I'd love it if they took him at 23.

I just now saw that Wes Bunting has us taking Martin at 23. Hallelujah.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Mock-Draft-30-8948.html

Kirkpatrick can't cover well though. He was on a great defense that didn't allow QBs to have enough time to hit WRs on long patterns. How long did Dre really have to cover someone? That defense covered up his flaws.

Besides, teams usually run right up the middle against the wide nine, so his run support is not as effective in Detroit.

Please find me a scouting report that says Dre can't cover.

 

[lp4ever41]

Kirkpatrick can't cover well though. He was on a great defense that didn't allow QBs to have enough time to hit WRs on long patterns. How long did Dre really have to cover someone? That defense covered up his flaws.

Besides, teams usually run right up the middle against the wide nine, so his run support is not as effective in Detroit.

Please find me a scouting report that says Dre can't cover.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120216/SPORTS01/120216045/nfl-draft-todd-mcshay-detroit-lions?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports
McShay said the 6-foot-2, 190-pound Kirkpatrick is

 

[cheeno]

[quote="cheeno":0frlmjjy]

Please find me a scouting report that says Dre can't cover.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120216/SPORTS01/120216045/nfl-draft-todd-mcshay-detroit-lions?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports
McShay said the 6-foot-2, 190-pound Kirkpatrick is

 

[lp4ever41]

[quote="cheeno":lkyhl7vl]
[quote="lp4ever41":lkyhl7vl]
http://www.freep.com/article/20120216/SPORTS01/120216045/nfl-draft-todd-mcshay-detroit-lions?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports
McShay said the 6-foot-2, 190-pound Kirkpatrick is

 

[cheeno]

Every player from Luck on down is going to be heavily scrutinized. Saying he's not an elite in man coverage (Aso, Revis, Joseph) is not = to saying he has poor coverage skills.

I simply said that he can't cover WELL. You forgot the keyword. WELL. I don't think his cover skills warrant a first round pick from a team that plays defense the way Detroit does. There will be better options.

Doesn't warrant a first round pick? Your quote-man Mayock thinks he will be gone by 17; McShay at 17 to the Bengals:

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Ma....4-9652a ce65c8a

A team that plays Defense the way Detroit does? And what way is that? Terrible?

 

[lp4ever41]

I simply said that he can't cover WELL. You forgot the keyword. WELL. I don't think his cover skills warrant a first round pick from a team that plays defense the way Detroit does. There will be better options.

Doesn't warrant a first round pick? Your quote-man Mayock thinks he will be gone by 17; McShay at 17 to the Bengals:

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Ma....4-9652a ce65c8a

A team that plays Defense the way Detroit does? And what way is that? Terrible?

Man to man. He's better off with teams that play a lot of zone. Don't remember Detroit playing much zone.

You seem to have a habit of quoting only fragments of my sentences. I never said he isn't worth a first rounder. For some other teams, he's definitely worth a first rounder. I just don't think he's a fit for Detroit. You'd take him over Jenkins, Barron, Adams, Martin, or Glenn?

 

[cheeno]

Yes I would take him over all those players. He would be the BPA and best DB next to Claiborne. I would like to see more of Martin though, protecting Stafford has got to be the No. 1 priority this offseason, if Backus gets injured I don't like the option of Hilliard/Fox protecting his blindside.

 

[lp4ever41]

Yes I would take him over all those players. He would be the BPA and best DB next to Claiborne. I would like to see more of Martin though, protecting Stafford has got to be the No. 1 priority this offseason, if Backus gets injured I don't like the option of Hilliard/Fox protecting his blindside.

Ok, thats fine. I guess I just don't buy into the Dre hype. If he's BPA, then Mayhew will take him.

 

[dannydiggler]

Yes I would take him over all those players. He would be the BPA and best DB next to Claiborne. I would like to see more of Martin though, protecting Stafford has got to be the No. 1 priority this offseason, if Backus gets injured I don't like the option of Hilliard/Fox protecting his blindside.

Ok, thats fine. I guess I just don't buy into the Dre hype. If he's BPA, then Mayhew will take him.

I would hate having a big hitter in the secondary..

 

[lp4ever41]

Danny Diggler[/color]]

Ok, thats fine. I guess I just don't buy into the Dre hype. If he's BPA, then Mayhew will take him.

I would hate having a big hitter in the secondary..

As a corner?

How many of the best corners in the game would you describe as big hitters? When did that become the primary function of a man to man cover corner?

Safety, sure. But is taking a corner in the first round and converting him to safety really the best option?

 

[cheeno]

Depending on what he runs at the combine, all signs would point to him being gone anyways.

Like I said earlier anyone with size gets the safety tag thrown around, he would be drafted to play CB. This defense can use all the big hitters/sure tacklers we can get. One reason is why everyone is hot on Finnegan.

 

[lp4ever41]

Depending on what he runs at the combine, all signs would point to him being gone anyways.

Like I said earlier anyone with size gets the safety tag thrown around, he would be drafted to play CB. This defense can use all the big hitters/sure tacklers we can get. One reason is why everyone is hot on Finnegan.

Sure, but I think a bigger problem for the secondary was coverage. Sure, sometimes you'd watch the corners and wish they tackled better. But MUCH more often, you'd wish they could cover better.

You can't take a corner and simply fit him in any type of defense and it works. Look what happened to Nnamdi when they tried to play him in a style he wasn't used to. You can't just take any corner, his strengths need to match your style.

 

[cheeno]

Depending on what he runs at the combine, all signs would point to him being gone anyways.

Like I said earlier anyone with size gets the safety tag thrown around, he would be drafted to play CB. This defense can use all the big hitters/sure tacklers we can get. One reason is why everyone is hot on Finnegan.

Sure, but I think a bigger problem for the secondary was coverage. Sure, sometimes you'd watch the corners and wish they tackled better. But MUCH more often, you'd wish they could cover better.

You can't take a corner and simply fit him in any type of defense and it works. Look what happened to Nnamdi when they tried to play him in a style he wasn't used to. You can't just take any corner, his strengths need to match your style.

I don't get what your missing here. You are not a top 20 pick and likely the 2nd CB off the board if you can't cover anyone. Where did you get this idea?

The guy played plenty of man press coverage which was one of his strengths, he is not a zone only cb or a saftey, and a much more highly regarded prospect than Amukamara was last year, and your saying you wouldn't love to have him at 23?

 

[lions2011]

Kirkpatrick at 23 would be BPA....would be hard to pass up.

 

[lp4ever41]

Sure, but I think a bigger problem for the secondary was coverage. Sure, sometimes you'd watch the corners and wish they tackled better. But MUCH more often, you'd wish they could cover better.

You can't take a corner and simply fit him in any type of defense and it works. Look what happened to Nnamdi when they tried to play him in a style he wasn't used to. You can't just take any corner, his strengths need to match your style.

I don't get what your missing here. You are not a top 20 pick and likely the 2nd CB off the board if you can't cover anyone. Where did you get this idea?

The guy played plenty of man press coverage which was one of his strengths, he is not a zone only cb or a saftey, and a much more highly regarded prospect than Amukamara was last year, and your saying you wouldn't love to have him at 23?

When did I say he can't cover anyone? I simply said that its not HIS STRENGTH. He has more value to teams that play zone. The only way Detroit takes a corner at #23 is if he excels in man coverage.

Its sorta like Melvin Ingram. Fits better in a 3-4. Doesn't mean he'd be useless in a 4-3, but a 3-4 team might rate him higher. When you scout players, you scout them relative to your style of play. When Mel Kiper scouts players, he does it generally. There's a difference there that you don't seem to understand.

Come find me if Dre is available at 23 and Mayhew takes him.

 

[lp4ever41]

Kirkpatrick at 23 would be BPA....would be hard to pass up.

Dre vs Janoris, you'd take Dre?

 

[lions2011]

Kirkpatrick at 23 would be BPA....would be hard to pass up.

Dre vs Janoris, you'd take Dre?

I'd take whoever...no way both wlil be there , pretty good chance neither will.

but hypothetical Dre vs Jenkins...I take Kirkpatrick.

 

[lp4ever41]

Dre vs Janoris, you'd take Dre?

I'd take whoever...no way both wlil be there , pretty good chance neither will.

but hypothetical Dre vs Jenkins...I take Kirkpatrick.

Fair enough. I guess I just don't buy into the hype he gets.

If Mayhew takes him, then I'll eat some crow.

 

[mhughes0021]

none of our dbs cover real well....its worth a shot. Id rather have Jenkins at 23 if were for sure going cb and dre and Jenkins are both on the board. Theres a decent chance neither are on the board....but im guessing if 1 is on the board it will be Dre.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be an upgrade. I'm just saying I'd rather have Glenn, one of the OTs, Jenkins, or Barron.

most would agree with you but theres a good chance all the people you listed except maybe adams are off the board when we pick. Glenn would be great value if hes still on the board. Barron is a no brainer at 23 but hell be long gone. Bpa at our pick is going to be a lb like burfict or a de like mercilus.

 

[dannydiggler]

Danny Diggler[/color]]

I would hate having a big hitter in the secondary..

As a corner?

How many of the best corners in the game would you describe as big hitters? When did that become the primary function of a man to man cover corner?

Safety, sure. But is taking a corner in the first round and converting him to safety really the best option?

Antoine Winfield for about 10 years. But I would rather have a smaller Janoris Jenkins who gets whiffed and mauled at the l.o.s and gets posterized by a bigger receiver all day than an athletic freak who can jam effectively, run with a sub 4.4 receiver, out jump 90% of receivers in the league and absolutely crush people.