MSU vs BYU

[Spartanmack]

No excuses for the coaches. Warner and bollman suck. Period. Even at our most talented, being predictable is a recipe for disaster when you play elite teams (recall what Alabama and Oregon did to our best teams). It may be enough to win a big ten title, but it's not enough to be elite.

The O-line coach has to go - it's been a consistent weakness and Barnett is looking like he's not even a good position coach never mind a coordinator. This was supposed to be MD's most talented team and they stink. Sure, there have been a lot of injuries but other than the run defense, they sucked even before they started dropping like flies.

 

[Spartanmack]

Also, how bad is notre dame? We look awful but they made our offense look good. That's saying a lot

I could have told you that 3 weeks ago. Oh wait...

 

[Sbee]

No excuses for the coaches. Warner and bollman suck. Period. Even at our most talented, being predictable is a recipe for disaster when you play elite teams (recall what Alabama and Oregon did to our best teams). It may be enough to win a big ten title, but it's not enough to be elite.

The O-line coach has to go - it's been a consistent weakness and Barnett is looking like he's not even a good position coach never mind a coordinator. This was supposed to be MD's most talented team and they stink. Sure, there have been a lot of injuries but other than the run defense, they sucked even before they started dropping like flies.

Yep, fire the OL coach, he has to go. Never mind that he lost and all American left tackle, an all American center, and a rt tackle that got drafted. Add to that the LT who was the backup to an all American that left early suffered a horrific leg break. Yes, fire the OL coach 5 games into this season, never mind what's happened over his career. We should be dominant in the trenches this year.

Good point on firing Barnett too. We lost our two best linebackers, a starting corner, starting DT, but hey, we should dominate for 4 quartets even given that. Even an idiot can see that this team defended well for the first 2-3 quarters in the last few games, then wore down late. That has a lot to do with little/no depth due to injuries and dismissals. But yeah, blow it up and fire everyone.

 

[Sbee]

I could have told you that 3 weeks ago. Oh wait...

Right, their qb isn't good either.....oh wait.

 

[Spartanmack]

Right, their qb isn't good either.....oh wait.

you still think he's a great QB? What evidence do you have - the MSU and Syracuse games? You're trying hard to be right about something - I guess that's admirable.

Edit: DeShone's Total QBR score would seem to indicate that he's pretty average - ranked 41st overall with a rather pedestrian 66.2. But you read some draft experts who said he was the best draft prospect not only at his position, but in college football so he must be great. Here's the list. I've never heard of a lot of the 40 QBs ranked ahead of him, but they must be really awesome.

http://www.espn.com/ncf/qbr

Looking forward to you tripling down on this one.

 

[Sbee]

you still think he's a great QB? What evidence do you have - the MSU and Syracuse games? You're trying hard to be right about something - I guess that's admirable.

I'm judging by the fact that he's a projected #1 overall pick or at least he was the last time I checked, he's put up huge numbers this year other than yesterday playing in a hurricane.

Just make it a point to focus on the ND game a few weeks ago because I said their front 7 was good but their secondary was abysmal and decimated with injuries. That's what everyone wants to talk about in this thread.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yep, fire the OL coach, he has to go. Never mind that he lost and all American left tackle, an all American center, and a rt tackle that got drafted. Add to that the LT who was the backup to an all American that left early suffered a horrific leg break. Yes, fire the OL coach 5 games into this season, never mind what's happened over his career. We should be dominant in the trenches this year.

Good point on firing Barnett too. We lost our two best linebackers, a starting corner, starting DT, but hey, we should dominate for 4 quartets even given that. Even an idiot can see that this team defended well for the first 2-3 quarters in the last few games, then wore down late. That has a lot to do with little/no depth due to injuries and dismissals. But yeah, blow it up and fire everyone.

nevermind that he's gone from having an OK offensive line with 3 drafts picks to the worst line we've ever seen in the space of a year. And never mind that the line has always been the weak spot of the team with the possible exception of the defensive backfield in 1 year. Never mind that Rutgers consistently sends more offensive linemen to the NFL. If you ignore all that, then he's a great coach.

I didn't say fire Barnett, but he should be on the hot seat for sure. You're aware this isn't the 1st year our secondary has sucked, right?. Dantonio should seriously think about hiring a better DC in above him.

And by the way, there's a big difference between dominating and the performance our coaches are getting from players. Yeah, the injuries are piling up in the last few weeks but remember, this team has stunk all year. it would be one thing if the team was average but they're not - they suck. And when they suck, you have to re-evaluate things. Well, not you, you make excuses.

And by the way, Riley Bullough isn't that good to begin with and aren't you the guy who was saying it's next man up touting our depth everywhere or was that Johnny2x?

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm judging by the fact that he's a projected #1 overall pick or at least he was the last time I checked, he's put up huge numbers this year other than yesterday playing in a hurricane.

Just make it a point to focus on the ND game a few weeks ago because I said their front 7 was good but their secondary was abysmal and decimated with injuries. That's what everyone wants to talk about in this thread.

Has he put up huge numbers? Did you see my edits where I showed that he's ranked 41st overall with a crappy QBR?

I'm not focusing on it. Lucious brought it up so I cracked a joke about it. But since you got your panties in a wad about it again, I'll say this - I was right about ND's front 7 and you were wrong. And I'm right about DeShone Kizer and you are wrong. Just make it a point to never admit you're wrong about anything - bring it up and then deflect by accusing me of being the one bringing it up. You'll go to the grave defending mediocrity at MSU because you think that makes you the true fan.

 

[Sbee]

Has he put up huge numbers? Did you see my edits where I showed that he's ranked 41st overall with a crappy QBR?

I'm not focusing on it. Lucious brought it up so I cracked a joke about it. But since you got your panties in a wad about it again, I'll say this - I was right about ND's front 7 and you were wrong. And I'm right about DeShone Kizer and you are wrong. Just make it a point to never admit you're wrong about anything - bring it up and then deflect by accusing me of being the one bringing it up. You'll go to the grave defending mediocrity at MSU because you think that makes you the true fan.

I might have been wrong about ND'S front 7, I haven't watched them since our game. They lost 3 or 4 starters from their secondary and I know that is a huge part of their defensive failure. If you want to thump your chest about their front 7 weeks later, fine, little baby boy can get the last word about it

You're also the moron who says to fire our DC and ol coach the year after a big ten title and a ton of attrition. Who is that stupid? Mr knee jerk reaction.

 

[Spartanmack]

I might have been wrong about ND'S front 7, I haven't watched them since our game. They lost 3 or 4 starters from their secondary and I know that is a huge part of their defensive failure. If you want to thump your chest about their front 7 weeks later, fine, little baby boy can get the last word about it

You're also the moron who says to fire our DC and ol coach the year after a big ten title and a ton of attrition. Who is that stupid? Mr knee jerk reaction.

LOL. You're so pathetic.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

So is Terry the starter now? I really hope it's an open competition between Lewerke, Messiah, and Terry. Let O'Connor carry the clipboard, he's earned that starting job.

 

[tomdalton22]

Is it the end of the road for MSU at the top of the Big 10?

http://talking10.com/big-ten/michigan-state-spartans-issues/

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Is it the end of the road for MSU at the top of the Big 10?

http://talking10.com/big-ten/michigan-state-spartans-issues/

Didn't even bother reading the article. You knew this would come up as soon as MSU had one bad season. Same idiots wrote articles about "Texas Football Being Back" when Texas started the season 2-0. We are arguably in the toughest conference in college football, Ohio State and Michigan are the real deal. And don't give me the SEC nonsense, Alabama carries that conference in terms of reputation, everyone else is average. So is MSU going to have some bad seasons? Yes, but to think that they will be Rutgers year in and year out you are out of your mind. See 2012.

 

[Sbee]

nevermind that he's gone from having an OK offensive line with 3 drafts picks to the worst line we've ever seen in the space of a year. And never mind that the line has always been the weak spot of the team with the possible exception of the defensive backfield in 1 year. Never mind that Rutgers consistently sends more offensive linemen to the NFL. If you ignore all that, then he's a great coach.

I didn't say fire Barnett, but he should be on the hot seat for sure. You're aware this isn't the 1st year our secondary has sucked, right?. Dantonio should seriously think about hiring a better DC in above him.

And by the way, there's a big difference between dominating and the performance our coaches are getting from players. Yeah, the injuries are piling up in the last few weeks but remember, this team has stunk all year. it would be one thing if the team was average but they're not - they suck. And when they suck, you have to re-evaluate things. Well, not you, you make excuses.

And by the way, Riley Bullough isn't that good to begin with and aren't you the guy who was saying it's next man up touting our depth everywhere or was that Johnny2x?

You want heads to roll, Mark Staten and Harlon Barnett are the two that you mentioned. Keep in mind that we won 60 games over the last 6 years, these coaches have been there for that entire run, we benefit from our staff continuity. These guys are also excellent recruiters, Barnett's territory is southern Ohio where we've been killing it. We have an excellent pipeline at Archbishop Moeller where we have an excellent pipeline to a powerhouse program. If the DC and OL coach need to go, how in the heck did we win all of those games? Also, MD is a defensive minded coach, former defensive coordinator. He calls a lot of the shots with our defense, playing press man coverage, aggressive blitzing, etc.

MSU football is built on running the football, stopping the run, and winning the turnover battle. We've done a lot of that in the last few years, this year is a complete reversal. The knee jerk reaction is for heads to roll, forget continuity and the past success and focus on what's going on in the current moment. Informed fans actually think about the reasons why we're in this situation. We're getting killed on both sides of the ball and you can't deny the attrition as a factor. MD made the decision to kick of two knuckleheads and that has a huge impact on this team. Craig Evans was a monster, paired with Malik Mcdowell, Evans helped to pretty much shut down Derrick Henry last year in the CFP. Not a lot went right for us in that game, but obviously we stopped the run against a heisman trophy winner with one DT's that could be anchoring this defense this year. Losing Conklin early hurt, but losing the next best LT to a horrific leg break, plus losing a lot to graduation, that's going to have an impact. There were also some recruiting misses along the way, this is a perfect storm for us in the trenches

We've been producing great defensive backs over the last few years. Two first round draft picks in the last 3 years, a number of other all big ten caliber players. Of course defensive units don't play in isolation, having an effective pass rush impacts the defensive backs. You can't stick with someone indefinitely, getting to the QB matters. We're dead last in the big ten in sacks this year, that's unheard of, 118th in the country. We were 13th in the country last year.

The reason that we're in this position is mainly due to line play, along with horrible special teams. The knee jerk reaction is always to want someone's head on a platter, but this situation is due to attrition, injuries, and a few recruiting misses. Firing coaches would make this program worse off, it would not make us better.

 

[Sbee]

So is Terry the starter now? I really hope it's an open competition between Lewerke, Messiah, and Terry. Let O'Connor carry the clipboard, he's earned that starting job.

Whatever, if they're close in talent and give us the same chance to win this year then go with the younger guy. I don't think Terry is going to be anything more than Keith Nichol was as a QB in 2009. TOC can be the fall guy, but it's line play more than anything.

 

[Spartanmack]

Didn't even bother reading the article. You knew this would come up as soon as MSU had one bad season. Same idiots wrote articles about "Texas Football Being Back" when Texas started the season 2-0. We are arguably in the toughest conference in college football, Ohio State and Michigan are the real deal. And don't give me the SEC nonsense, Alabama carries that conference in terms of reputation, everyone else is average. So is MSU going to have some bad seasons? Yes, but to think that they will be Rutgers year in and year out you are out of your mind. See 2012.

I haven't read the article either, but the question doesn't sound so unreasonable. Michigan sucked the entire time we've had this success and OSU was bad for a few years of it as well. I've been saying all along if we want to remain competitive for the long term, we really need to recruit better. The diamonds in the rough model isn't going to turn out consistent championship caliber teams when you're in a division with 2 national powers. They could both stumble again, but that's not something we should rely on. We may still compete but anyone who doesn't see that the dynamic has changed is nuts.

 

[Spartanmack]

You want heads to roll, Mark Staten and Harlon Barnett are the two that you mentioned. Keep in mind that we won 60 games over the last 6 years, these coaches have been there for that entire run, we benefit from our staff continuity. These guys are also excellent recruiters, Barnett's territory is southern Ohio where we've been killing it. We have an excellent pipeline at Archbishop Moeller where we have an excellent pipeline to a powerhouse program. If the DC and OL coach need to go, how in the heck did we win all of those games? Also, MD is a defensive minded coach, former defensive coordinator. He calls a lot of the shots with our defense, playing press man coverage, aggressive blitzing, etc.

MSU football is built on running the football, stopping the run, and winning the turnover battle. We've done a lot of that in the last few years, this year is a complete reversal. The knee jerk reaction is for heads to roll, forget continuity and the past success and focus on what's going on in the current moment. Informed fans actually think about the reasons why we're in this situation. We're getting killed on both sides of the ball and you can't deny the attrition as a factor. MD made the decision to kick of two knuckleheads and that has a huge impact on this team. Craig Evans was a monster, paired with Malik Mcdowell, Evans helped to pretty much shut down Derrick Henry last year in the CFP. Not a lot went right for us in that game, but obviously we stopped the run against a heisman trophy winner with one DT's that could be anchoring this defense this year. Losing Conklin early hurt, but losing the next best LT to a horrific leg break, plus losing a lot to graduation, that's going to have an impact. There were also some recruiting misses along the way, this is a perfect storm for us in the trenches

We've been producing great defensive backs over the last few years. Two first round draft picks in the last 3 years, a number of other all big ten caliber players. Of course defensive units don't play in isolation, having an effective pass rush impacts the defensive backs. You can't stick with someone indefinitely, getting to the QB matters. We're dead last in the big ten in sacks this year, that's unheard of, 118th in the country. We were 13th in the country last year.

The reason that we're in this position is mainly due to line play, along with horrible special teams. The knee jerk reaction is always to want someone's head on a platter, but this situation is due to attrition, injuries, and a few recruiting misses. Firing coaches would make this program worse off, it would not make us better.

for the third time, I didn't say fire Barnett - I said maybe we should make him a position coach and look to bring in a better defensive coordinator. I did say fire Warner, Bollman and Mueller and I've been critical of all of them and said so on here for years - I said hiring Bollman was dumb and i've said he has sucked ever since. So this isn't a knee jerk reaction. And here's a little truth to straighten out your revisionist history - we didn't win 60 games with Barnett as DC and since he's been DC, our defense hasn't been all that great. Remember, every good team we played in 2014 torched us for well over 500 yards (including Baylor, the one good team we beat) and the 2015 defense was good up front but god awful in the backfield. And your pipeline to Moeller - LOL, the kids we get out of Ohio don't get OSU and uofm offers (looking forward to your rant about a handful of kids over 8 years that could have been scout team buckeyes).

I didn't read past the first couple sentences because it became immediately clear you're having an argument with me and calling me names for things I didn't say. I just wanted to take minute to point out even your response to things I didn't say was stupid.

 

[Spartanmack]

So is Terry the starter now? I really hope it's an open competition between Lewerke, Messiah, and Terry. Let O'Connor carry the clipboard, he's earned that starting job.

Amen. Like Sbee said, TOC's not the only reason we're losing but what he doesn't seem to grasp is he's a pretty big part of it and there's no upside to keeping him in there.

 

[SpartyNash]

Didn't even bother reading the article. You knew this would come up as soon as MSU had one bad season. Same idiots wrote articles about "Texas Football Being Back" when Texas started the season 2-0. We are arguably in the toughest conference in college football, Ohio State and Michigan are the real deal. And don't give me the SEC nonsense, Alabama carries that conference in terms of reputation, everyone else is average. So is MSU going to have some bad seasons? Yes, but to think that they will be Rutgers year in and year out you are out of your mind. See 2012.

:nod: we have a winner ladies and gentlemen

 

[Sbee]

for the third time, I didn't say fire Barnett - I said maybe we should make him a position coach and look to bring in a better defensive coordinator. I did say fire Warner, Bollman and Mueller and I've been critical of all of them and said so on here for years - I said hiring Bollman was dumb and i've said he has sucked ever since. So this isn't a knee jerk reaction. And here's a little truth to straighten out your revisionist history - we didn't win 60 games with Barnett as DC and since he's been DC, our defense hasn't been all that great. Remember, every good team we played in 2014 torched us for well over 500 yards (including Baylor, the one good team we beat) and the 2015 defense was good up front but god awful in the backfield. And your pipeline to Moeller - LOL, the kids we get out of Ohio don't get OSU and uofm offers (looking forward to your rant about a handful of kids over 8 years that could have been scout team buckeyes).

I didn't read past the first couple sentences because it became immediately clear you're having an argument with me and calling me names for things I didn't say. I just wanted to take minute to point out even your response to things I didn't say was stupid.

Very opinionated, but also very uniformed. First, you want to fire Matt Mueller? Seriously? he's not that involved in recruiting other than setting up itineraries for kids when they get on campus, Curtis Blackwell is way more involved in recruiting for a non coach.

So you bring up 2014 as an indictment of Barnett? You do understand that Narduzzi was the DC at that time, I'm sure you didn't think that when you made this post but you'll somehow spin that and say those games were Barnett's fault. We lost to the CFP finalist and National champion, with JT Barrett playing the best game I've ever seen a QB play in East lansing. Those were damn good football teams, even Baylor, who was a top 5 team with one of the top offenses in the country. We did hold them under their season average and also held them to negative rushing yards. It's important to make a team one dimensional and take the run away, late in the game, if Baylor was able to get first downs on the ground they would have won the game.

Good point on the DB's being bad in 2015, further indictment of Barnett. Never mind that our #1 corner on the depth chart got hurt in the Oregon game and missed the rest of the season, that our senior safety leader got hurt in the big ten opener and missed the regular season, played a few snaps against bama, our other starting corner had mono and then a concussion, we went into the Michigan game starting Greyson Miller and Khari Willis, two freshmen who just had their red shirts burned out of emergency. Yes, Barnett did a horrible job with the DB's in 2015.

MSU has been very good on the OL for the last few years, Connor Cook had plenty of time to pass and we're putting RB's in the NFL, running the football well. We've dominated in the trenches for the last few seasons, Staten is also not the problem.

Yes, recruiting does matter. Each assistant coach works a certain territory and southern Ohio is critical. It's not just Moeller but other schools in that critical area. Getting kids out of Ohio has been instrumental in our success as a program. We haven't been a pulling in top rated classes, but those rankings are also biased toward larger classes and we luckily have very low attrition. Our average star ranking has generally been higher than overall rankings, not sure if you understand these things though. Do you understand how good our DL class for 2017 is? That's where games are won and we killed it there with Robertson, King, Panisuik, Jones.

This team is suffering from a few recruiting misses, but mainly from losing 3 excellent OL, dismissing two DL's that were heading for major roles, and suffering an injury to your potential starting LT. Some fans want heads to roll, that doesn't make us better in the slightest but some uninformed people want their pound of flesh.