Otl - al mvp

[zoombabyzoom]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8453697

 

[Mitchrapp]

I stopped after he said "statistically the game has never seen" when referring to trout. Which is a straight out lie. Maybe for a 20 year old but how many Miguel's have won a Triple Crown, lol.

 

[tomdalton22]

I stopped after he said "statistically the game has never seen" when referring to trout. Which is a straight out lie. Maybe for a 20 year old but how many Miguel's have won a Triple Crown, lol.

what they are saying is true if you listen to it objectively.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

I dont give any weight to WAR, because of a couple things:

First, there isnt one formula to calculate it. Which just tells me that it cant be trusted. I dont know about you but if I was taking a math test and gave a wrong answer I dont think I could argue that there are multiple answers because you can use different formulas.

Second, it is Wins Above Replacement. I don't see how that applies to a MVP debate. I really don't care how good a player is over his replacement, or how bad his replacement is. Or the fact that certain positions are weighted heavier in these formulas. I don't care how good Trout is as a CF, I want to know how valuable he is. And WAR tells you how valuable he is as a CF, not a player.

Also, in the formula certain things are weighted heavier than others. For example, hitting is rated better than fielding, or playing catcher means more than CF, etc. Who decides that? Ahhhh and now we found how ridiculous this formula is. Some people somewhere just decided whats better and what isnt. If I could do that in any formula I would be the smartest person on the planet.

 

[tomdalton22]

I dont give any weight to WAR, because of a couple things:

First, there isnt one formula to calculate it. Which just tells me that it cant be trusted. I dont know about you but if I was taking a math test and gave a wrong answer I dont think I could argue that there are multiple answers because you can use different formulas.

Second, it is Wins Above Replacement. I don't see how that applies to a MVP debate. I really don't care how good a player is over his replacement, or how bad his replacement is. Or the fact that certain positions are weighted heavier in these formulas. I don't care how good Trout is as a CF, I want to know how valuable he is. And WAR tells you how valuable he is as a CF, not a player.

Also, in the formula certain things are weighted heavier than others. For example, hitting is rated better than fielding, or playing catcher means more than CF, etc. Who decides that? Ahhhh and now we found how ridiculous this formula is. Some people somewhere just decided whats better and what isnt. If I could do that in any formula I would be the smartest person on the planet.

I don't give much weight to WAR either....but I do give wieght to what they are TRYING to qauntify.....defense, base running and the position that the defensive player plays. WAR trys to include that but I agree it is flawed....it is also flawed to just look at the traditional "triple crown" numbers and basically ignore the rest.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't give much weight to WAR either....but I do give wieght to what they are TRYING to qauntify.....defense, base running and the position that the defensive player plays. WAR trys to include that but I agree it is flawed....it is also flawed to just look at the traditional "triple crown" numbers and basically ignore the rest.

Defense, blah. You can't compare CF and 3rd. You can't say ones a better CF than the other guy is a 3B. As far as defensive WAR goes, Trout is not better that say AJ in CF. Regardless what his WAR numbers are. So AJ is much lower this year, maybe he didn't get the chances of making great plays or something but AJ is the better CF. And its not even close.

 

[tomdalton22]

Defense, blah. You can't compare CF and 3rd. You can't say ones a better CF than the other guy is a 3B. As far as defensive WAR goes, Trout is not better that say AJ in CF. Regardless what his WAR numbers are. So AJ is much lower this year, maybe he didn't get the chances of making great plays or something but AJ is the better CF. And its not even close.

Says the Tiger homer.

You can say that one player is a better defensive player even if they play different positions.....how can you ignore it unless you are a Tiger homer?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Says the Tiger homer.

You can say that one player is a better defensive player even if they play different positions.....how can you ignore it unless you are a Tiger homer?

Trout has a 2.1 D-WAR while AJ is at 0.8. Not only is AJ a better CF, even in Bizzarro world no way Trout is 3 times better.

But back to your point, I never said Trout wasn't a better defensive player. But you cannot use WAR as a barometer because Trout doesn't play 3B. If he did, he might be worst then Miggy there.

 

[tomdalton22]

Trout has a 2.1 D-WAR while AJ is at 0.8. Not only is AJ a better CF, even in Bizzarro world no way Trout is 3 times better.

But back to your point, I never said Trout wasn't a better defensive player. But you cannot use WAR as a barometer because Trout doesn't play 3B. If he did, he might be worst then Miggy there.

AJ is a good defensive CF but nothing special. He makes some great plays but I have seen him look bad out there too. I think Trout is probably the better defensive CF. I don't get where you say Trout is 3x better though????

 

[Mitchrapp]

AJ is a good defensive CF but nothing special. He makes some great plays but I have seen him look bad out there too. I think Trout is probably the better defensive CF. I don't get where you say Trout is 3x better though????

Are you kidding me? You're crazy. AJ is awesome. And since you're a WAR guy, 3.4 last year, Trout 2.1 this year.

Nothing special, lol.

 

[tomdalton22]

Are you kidding me? You're crazy. AJ is awesome. And since you're a WAR guy, 3.4 last year, Trout 2.1 this year.

Nothing special, lol.

I'm not a huge WAR guy.....it is just a new tool that has some merit but has it's flaws. AJ is not awesome...he is good. He has some great plays but he also can look very average out there. Like I said...he is a good defensive CF AND a good offensive CF.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Dude, he's awesome. Should have gotten a GG last season.

 

[mjsb2]

Defense, blah. You can't compare CF and 3rd. You can't say ones a better CF than the other guy is a 3B. As far as defensive WAR goes, Trout is not better that say AJ in CF. Regardless what his WAR numbers are. So AJ is much lower this year, maybe he didn't get the chances of making great plays or something but AJ is the better CF. And its not even close.

You absolutely can.

Trout is an elite defensive CFer, his defense saves runs.

Cabrera is one of the worst defensive 3B, his defense cost runs.

It's pretty easy to look at them and draw that conclusion, hell it's common sense.

 

[mjsb2]

AJ is a top 3 defensive CFer at worst.

 

[Mitchrapp]

You absolutely can.

Trout is an elite defensive CFer, his defense saves runs.

Cabrera is one of the worst defensive 3B, his defense cost runs.

It's pretty easy to look at them and draw that conclusion, hell it's common sense.

I never said that wasn't the case but WAR is different on a CF and a 3B. That's all I was making the case for. Put Trout at 3rd and it will cost runs. Miguel at least played the OF before.

 

[tomdalton22]

You absolutely can.

Trout is an elite defensive CFer, his defense saves runs.

Cabrera is one of the worst defensive 3B, his defense cost runs.

It's pretty easy to look at them and draw that conclusion, hell it's common sense.

Watching Cabrera all season I don't think he is one of the worst defensive 3B in the league. He is probably just a little below average ONLY becuase of his lack of range. I agree with your assessment of Trout....he is an elite defensive CF. I think having an elite defensive CF is much more important than defense at 3B.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Mike Trout is a stud in CF. He is every bit as good as Jackson is out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59sJQM_R3tc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LMeiCEpyyM - robbing our very own Prince Fielder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbZHtOOPtxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AD4C7v9mIg

That's four home runs just in the five minutes I looked.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Wow, you mean you posted some good plays by Trout - ON THE INTERNET? Nooooo way..

I bet I could find 10 plays by AJ in 5 minutes. Plus, if the opportunity isn't there to rob HR you can't catch them. I think I heard that somewhere ;-)

And Tom said "AJ is nothing special" - lol. Anyone who thinks that is crazy.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Wow, you mean you posted some good plays by Trout - ON THE INTERNET? Nooooo way..

I bet I could find 10 plays by AJ in 5 minutes. Plus, if the opportunity isn't there to rob HR you can't catch them. I think I heard that somewhere ;-)

And Tom said "AJ is nothing special" - lol. Anyone who thinks that is crazy.

Are you seriously discounting four home run robberies? If so that just makes you look incredibly biased as well as stupid. You could look all year and not find four for Jackson over his entire career. To everyone not wearing homer glasses Trout is every bit the center fielder Jackson is.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Are you seriously discounting four home run robberies? If so that just makes you look incredibly biased as well as stupid. You could look all year and not find four for Jackson over his entire career. To everyone not wearing homer glasses Trout is every bit the center fielder Jackson is.

You might have missed it, if you don't have the opportunity to catch a wall shot how can he have more? CF is 440 and deep alleys, not too many home run robberies you get. Duh.