Rutgers

[Sbee]

I don't think there's any way to justify or rationalize how bad the offense has been the second half of the season. Even with the starting QB and top WR and RB out. That speaks to an alarming lack of depth on the roster and imagination in the coaching staff. It's one thing to be shut down by UM awhile with all the injuries then, then after that OSU, Nebraska (and yes the weather didn't help in that one) and Rutgers? Have to wonder too how they produced such a bad offensive line, even when healthy.

Skill position depth was hurt by the transfers of Rison, Jackson, Deweaver, and London. It always seems like guys think they're blocked at a position and transfer but then things open up due to injuries. I think if you told us in the beginning of the year that the last 3 games would be Lombardi staring at QB, no LJ, no Felton and that Brandon Sowards would be a key player on offense I don't think you'd be shocked with these results.

Some things do fall on Warner but it seemed like receivers were open, we had a million drops vs Nebraska, etc. We're also not as much of an I form team with a fullback, etc. I've seen a lot more shotgun and spread concepts over the last few years. I'd put 80% of our struggles on lack of personnel

 

[Spartanmack]

I think LJ Scott's best days are behind him. I don't think he was patient so much as he was soft when carrying the ball and he can't block for shit - he's not even a poor man's Leveon Bell. Heyward was better at both those things and at catching balls out of the backfield.

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong about this next year, but I have a feeling we're going to see LJ get the bulk of the carries and disappoint because I don't think our OCs can evaluate player performance and they'll be stuck on his 2018 draft projections when deciding who the #1 TB is going to be.

 

[Sbee]

That's all possible but he did rush for 900 yards as a junior and missed a game or two, the Michigan game and I think he was hurt for another one. He had the same OC and pretty much the same OL that we had this year.

One major concern that doesnt get mentioned as much is getting zero production from our tight ends. Sokol and Dotson didnt do much and had a ton of drops. It would have been nice to have a safety valve this year, getting production from your tight end is huge when it comes to red zone efficiency. We kicked way too many short field goals because we were terrible in the red zone. Trenton Gillison will play next year, 4 star te, assume he was hurt this year since I can remember seeing him once.

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[byco42]

Question: Is MSU's program on a decline, an improvement, or in stasis? (not to infer in a state of strife)

 

[Spartanmack]

Question: Is MSU's program on a decline, an improvement, or in stasis? (not to infer in a state of strife)

Hard to say given the circumstances (injuries being the most significant) but I think we're stagnating as others (psu, uofm) are progressing giving the impression we're regressing or in decline. I would add though, that our OCs are so bad, we could easily have had 3 conference losses even without the injuries.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's all possible but he did rush for 900 yards as a junior and missed a game or two, the Michigan game and I think he was hurt for another one. He had the same OC and pretty much the same OL that we had this year.

One major concern that doesnt get mentioned as much is getting zero production from our tight ends. Sokol and Dotson didnt do much and had a ton of drops. It would have been nice to have a safety valve this year, getting production from your tight end is huge when it comes to red zone efficiency. We kicked way too many short field goals because we were terrible in the red zone. Trenton Gillison will play next year, 4 star te, assume he was hurt this year since I can remember seeing him once.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

yeah, I said in another post, possibly in another thread that if he came back looking like 2017 LJ, then I'd happily admit I was wrong - although, I don't think that even then he was a very good blocking back so he'd also need to improve there. As it stands, at a minimum Heyward deserves an objective look from the staff and personally, I think he should be the #1 TB going into Spring Ball.

 

[byco42]

Hard to say given the circumstances (injuries being the most significant) but I think we're stagnating as others (psu, uofm) are progressing giving the impression we're regressing or in decline. I would add though, that our OCs are so bad, we could easily have had 3 conference losses even without the injuries.

Sometimes a team can rebound. I think that MSU will.

 

[Spartanmack]

Sometimes a team can rebound. I think that MSU will.

I hope so but this is the second horrendous year in the last three. Dantonio needs to put together a streak of 3 or fewer losses otherwise, it's just going to get harder and harder for MSU to gain ground especially if uofm and psu continue on their trajectories.

 

[SpartyNash]

Sometimes a team can rebound. I think that MSU will.

I?ll let you know my opinion next August before the Tulsa game. If we ?hold in place? as Dantonio suggests our program is finished being remotely relevant. We?ll be 9-3 absolute ceiling every year and probably closer to 7-5 most seasons.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Question: Is MSU's program on a decline, an improvement, or in stasis? (not to infer in a state of strife)

With Dave Warner calling the plays the program will be lucky to win 7 games any given season. If we replace Dave with a high school offensive coordinator we may win 9 games.

All kidding aside. I think the program will struggle to win 10+ games going forward. Big Ten East is stacked. You play OSU, UofM, and PSU every single year. The chances of us beating all those three teams in a single season is probably less than 5% if I’m being realistic.
I think there needs to be drastic change. I don’t know how realistic it is to bring someone like the guy that just got fired at Texas Tech as an OC, but you have to try to get a big name in. We have co-coordinators on both sides of the ball and it’s a bunch of nonsense if you ask him. We pay two mediocre guys 400k or whatever it may be instead of spending a million on one person who can get the job done.

 

[johnny2x2x]

Hard to say given the circumstances (injuries being the most significant) but I think we're stagnating as others (psu, uofm) are progressing giving the impression we're regressing or in decline. I would add though, that our OCs are so bad, we could easily have had 3 conference losses even without the injuries.

PSU is progressing? We've beaten them 4 of 5. PSU is about to fall and fall hard IMO.

I think Michigan and Michigan State find themselves in the same place in some ways. Both have great defenses, both have coaches who are not good with offenses and continue to meddle too much on the offensive side of the ball. Both coaches are stuck in the past wanting to play Man Ball / Tressel Ball which are the same thing.

The game of football today is about outscoring your opponents and attacking them relentlessly on offense. Having a great defense is great, but I think an element of MSU's and UM's statistical prowess on defense is they both run offenses designed to keep the ball away from the opposing teams. MSU ends the regular season with the #2 S&P Defense in the nation, Michigan with the #4 S&P defense in the nation, but neither won shit. A healthy offense and MSU wins a few more games, but even then, are they really going anywhere?

For Michigan, Harbaugh needs to become a CEO as a head coach, fire Pep, McElwain and Warriner are probably leaving on their own. Hire a big time offensive mind as the OC, might have to pay him $2 Million, let him hire his own offensive assistants and then Harbaugh needs to be hands off the offense. Offer Kliff Kingsbury whatever he wants and hand him your offense.

For MSU, Dantonio has to fire his buddies. Bollman, Warner, and Staten have to go. Hire someone with more modern offensive concepts. Doesn't mean you have to throw the ball 60 times a game, but more motion and more advanced passing concepts have to be part of the offense going forward. The perfect guy to me is Dan Enos. Offer him $1 Million plus to be the new OC. Let him install a power spread that Bama is running now. He's also a great recruiter with an MSU pedigree. The perfect fit.

Of these 2 things, I think that UM hiring someone like Kingsbury is much more likely. Harbaugh has shown more of a willingness to fire his buddies than Dantonio has.

 

[byco42]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the informative responses. Michigan is in stasis, IMO, so long as it lacks a workhorse RB and a reliable, veteran OL on offense and a solid corps of interior linemen on defense. That it still cannot beat the best teams on its schedule is a *concern* that illustrates that the program is not progressing. I am weary of the QBs that transfer from other programs and supplant the recruited ones that then watch from the sidelines. I, as a potential QB recruit, would be deterred from coming to Michigan. Rudock was the exception and Patterson is not all that, IMO. Certainly no Doug Flutie or Drew Brees as under sized QBs go. Dantonio, I think is the right coach for MSU and he should determine his own future.

 

[Spartanmack]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the informative responses. Michigan is in stasis, IMO, so long as it lacks a workhorse RB and a reliable, veteran OL on offense and a solid corps of interior linemen on defense. That it still cannot beat the best teams on its schedule is a *concern* that illustrates that the program is not progressing. I am weary of the QBs that transfer from other programs and supplant the recruited ones that then watch from the sidelines. I, as a potential QB recruit, would be deterred from coming to Michigan. Rudock was the exception and Patterson is not all that, IMO. Certainly no Doug Flutie or Drew Brees as under sized QBs go. Dantonio, I think is the right coach for MSU and he should determine his own future.

I know it's not rocket science but to me, these are the keys to success in football. Skill positions are nice and necessary to be elite, but you're not going to get there without controlling the line of scrimmage. Having time can make serviceable QBs look like stars and getting pressure can have the opposite impact even on most elite QBs (with the possible exception of freaks like Vick, Newton, Watson, etc).

Sadly, the O-line has been the single biggest weakness for MSU even when Dantonio was winning championships (mostly while uofm & psu were in the dumps and osu was getting caught cheating).

 

[Spartanmack]

PSU is progressing? We've beaten them 4 of 5. PSU is about to fall and fall hard IMO.

hard to say for sure. Franklin's been there for 5 seasons now, if we give him a pass for the first 2, he's gone 11-3, 11-2 and 9-3 and is 1-1 in bowl games losing a close game to a top 10 team and beating #11. In that time, psu has absolutely clown stomped us once and blown late leads in the last two.

While this was a rough year for them without Barkley and McSorley playing hurt they've come a long way from their post sanction lows (they could win 10 games this year) - the last 3 years seem like progress to me. They still have a better brand and national recognition that we don't possess. Continuity or lack of, at the head coaching spot could spell more trouble but if Franklin sticks around, I expect them to be a top team in a tough B1G east.

 

[johnny2x2x]

I know it's not rocket science but to me, these are the keys to success in football. Skill positions are nice and necessary to be elite, but you're not going to get there without controlling the line of scrimmage. Having time can make serviceable QBs look like stars and getting pressure can have the opposite impact even on most elite QBs (with the possible exception of freaks like Vick, Newton, Watson, etc).

Sadly, the O-line has been the single biggest weakness for MSU even when Dantonio was winning championships (mostly while uofm & psu were in the dumps and osu was getting caught cheating).

LOL, we beat an undefeated and #2 Ohio State team to win one of those titles, a team that had more NFL draft picks on it than any team at OSU in history. And then we beat another undefeated and #2 Ohio State team at their place to win another title. OSU in 2013 was on a 24 game win streak. Beat several 10 win UM and PSU teams too. Not to mention sme elite Wisky teams too.

No coach in the B1G beat tougher teams than Dantonio has over the last decade save for Urban.

 

[Spartanmack]

LOL, we beat an undefeated and #2 Ohio State team to win one of those titles, a team that had more NFL draft picks on it than any team at OSU in history. And then we beat another undefeated and #2 Ohio State team at their place to win another title. OSU in 2013 was on a 24 game win streak. Beat several 10 win UM and PSU teams too. Not to mention sme elite Wisky teams too.

No coach in the B1G beat tougher teams than Dantonio has over the last decade save for Urban.

That's 1 of 3 teams in 2 of 5 years he won the title or was in the hunt for it. None of that changes the fact that for most of those years, the B1G powerhouse programs were in the dumps. We didn't play osu in 2010 (their 1 loss forfeit year), we were 1 of 7 teams that beat them in 2011 and we lost to them in 2012 - a year in which they had NOTHING to play for. And the win in 2015, while great was a 1 in 10 outcome and they were #3 that year. And those Wisco teams were not elite. Elite teams don't go winless in bowl games - they were just playing the same soft B1G schedule we were.

It may be true that no coach other than meyer has beaten tougher teams in the B1G than Dantonio, but that's doesn't change the fact that the toughest teams in the B1G in those years weren't that tough.

 

[SpartyNash]

That's 1 of 3 teams in 2 of 5 years he won the title or was in the hunt for it. None of that changes the fact that for most of those years, the B1G powerhouse programs were in the dumps. We didn't play osu in 2010 (their 1 loss forfeit year), we were 1 of 7 teams that beat them in 2011 and we lost to them in 2012 - a year in which they had NOTHING to play for. And the win in 2015, while great was a 1 in 10 outcome and they were #3 that year. And those Wisco teams were not elite. Elite teams don't go winless in bowl games - they were just playing the same soft B1G schedule we were.

It may be true that no coach other than meyer has beaten tougher teams in the B1G than Dantonio, but that's doesn't change the fact that the toughest teams in the B1G in those years weren't that tough.

Not to sound like a whiny UM fan but I seem to recall an OSU fumble or something late in that 2012 game that was blown dead and thus couldn?t be reviewed which ended up costing us big.

 

[johnny2x2x]

That's 1 of 3 teams in 2 of 5 years he won the title or was in the hunt for it. None of that changes the fact that for most of those years, the B1G powerhouse programs were in the dumps. We didn't play osu in 2010 (their 1 loss forfeit year), we were 1 of 7 teams that beat them in 2011 and we lost to them in 2012 - a year in which they had NOTHING to play for. And the win in 2015, while great was a 1 in 10 outcome and they were #3 that year. And those Wisco teams were not elite. Elite teams don't go winless in bowl games - they were just playing the same soft B1G schedule we were.

It may be true that no coach other than meyer has beaten tougher teams in the B1G than Dantonio, but that's doesn't change the fact that the toughest teams in the B1G in those years weren't that tough.

Yeah, and the 70s and most of the 80s the Big Ten was like the MAC minus 2 teams with double the scholarship players as the other teams. Look throughout the history of the conference, there's been a couple years total where ore than a team or 2 was having a great season. This year is a grat example, probably the most down the Big Ten has been in decades, but no one is saying OSU's title this year is because of how down the Big Ten is.

Penn State had one of their best teams last season that was coming off a Big Ten Title and crushing Michigan, we beat them then. We've beaten some good UM teams too along the way, an 11 win Hoke team, a 10 win Harbaugh team. Beat a 12-0 Iowa team. AS I mentioned, we beat 2 undefeated and top 2 Ohio State teams, who else has done that in the conference? No one. And then we beat some outstanding teams in our Bowl games. #3 Stanford, #5 Baylor, #18 WAzzu, #16 Georgia etc. Who's been winning titles with tougher paths than that the last couple decades?

 

[Spartanmack]

Not to sound like a whiny UM fan but I seem to recall an OSU fumble or something late in that 2012 game that was blown dead and thus couldn?t be reviewed which ended up costing us big.

it did, or at least I think that was 2012. but we weren't actually in contention in 2012. Braxton Miller fumbled, I forget who recovered it but he had a clear path to the endzone or to at least advance the ball 15+ yards but a whistle happy ref blew the play dead and called Miller down. The play was overturned and ruled a fumble but we got the ball at the spot of recovery and did nothing with it.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yeah, and the 70s and most of the 80s the Big Ten was like the MAC minus 2 teams with double the scholarship players as the other teams. Look throughout the history of the conference, there's been a couple years total where ore than a team or 2 was having a great season. This year is a grat example, probably the most down the Big Ten has been in decades, but no one is saying OSU's title this year is because of how down the Big Ten is.

Penn State had one of their best teams last season that was coming off a Big Ten Title and crushing Michigan, we beat them then. We've beaten some good UM teams too along the way, an 11 win Hoke team, a 10 win Harbaugh team. Beat a 12-0 Iowa team. AS I mentioned, we beat 2 undefeated and top 2 Ohio State teams, who else has done that in the conference? No one. And then we beat some outstanding teams in our Bowl games. #3 Stanford, #5 Baylor, #18 WAzzu, #16 Georgia etc. Who's been winning titles with tougher paths than that the last couple decades?

that first paragraph is at least partially true but that doesn't change the reality that most of the years MD was having success, all of the traditional powerhouse teams in the B1G were struggling. There were 2 years in 5 where OSU was solid, the other three they either weren't or we didn't play them. And it's not like during those years other teams stepped up and were really good - there was a void at the top of the B1G.

I wouldn't consider Wisco a traditional power - prior to Cheating Barry Alvarez, they were a doormat. And under Bielemma, they were MASSIVELY overrated and benefited from a weak B1G and even weaker divisional split for at least one of those years.

As for the second paragraph, those are just headline numbers that need some context. First, I would expect even mediocre uofm and psu teams to win 9+ games because in a 12 game schedule, they're going to play minimum 7 cupcakes every year, a couple middling teams and then 2 or 3 good B1G teams, possibly 1 good nonconference opponent - except PSU, their nonconf sched is a joke except the one year they got pimp slapped by Alabama. Second, that 12-0 Iowa team was a farce - they played in the very weak B1G west and their B1G East opponents were Maryland (3-9) and Indiana (6-7) and they got absolutely DESTROYED by Stanford in the Rose Bowl because we went to the Playoff and got smoked even worse.

and we did not beat 2 top 2 OSU teams, we beat a #2 and #3 OSU teams. Nobody is saying Dantonio doesn't have any quality wins - he clearly does. But it's insane to think the state of the B1G, particularly the traditional powerhouse teams didn't make it easier for him to be as successful as he was.