Tigers interested in + now with agreement in place for Joakim Soria

[tomdalton22]

I liked the Nathan signing. I think the mistake was not bringing back Benoit at 7M for the 8th. He is now paying Soria that same money for the same role.

I liked the Nathan signing too but I think I was wrong. I don't think they had a 7M option on Benoit (I could be wrong)...I think it was for Verras who has been shitty this year.

 

[Rebbiv]

Not gonna quote your whole post as this whole conversation is off-topic. The numbers I posted included his career year. I added some after that were just the last two seasons. I find relevance and you don't. Alex Avila has comparable numbers to Chase (better in some areas) and some (not saying you) think he is horrible.

Not sure why you want to beat the dead horse. I am not going to declare Chase Headley a top 10 3b until he backs it up in the here and now. I don't know why it matters to you so much. It seems you are only happy if people tell you that you're correct and we are sorry for thinking about disagreeing with you. Not gonna happen because I still say he's a light-hitting 3rd baseman. I like him as a player too. I was on the bandwagon early in 2012, even won a bet because of him. I expected him to be more than he has been.

Maybe he will realize the potential you see. Or maybe he is one of those guys who is plagued by nagging injuries. With data available it is a 50/50 proposition to me. Like I say. If he has a :775 OPS next season I will humbly concede that you were correct. Will you do the same thing if Kinsler
finishes this season with a .775 OPS?

I know you're big on home and away stats. I'm not. Either a guy can hit where the other team isn't or he can't. Players have 81 games away from home so ISO and Slugging work themselves out. Just because we have differing philosophies doesn't mean one of us has to be an idiot for our approaches to be rooted in logic.

What do you think I need to concede if Kinsler finishes with a .775 OPS?

This amounts to conceding my position on Brandon Inge after either the 2006 or 2009 seasons. I guessed I should have changed my opinion of Austin Jackson after the 2012.

Cherishing Fluke/career year players is not my style. It is your's.


And not taking into account home park biases, one way or the other, is just ignorant.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I liked the Nathan signing too but I think I was wrong. I don't think they had a 7M option on Benoit (I could be wrong)...I think it was for Verras who has been shitty this year.

You are correct there was no option on Benoit. I was going by what he signed for in San Diego and what he said he wanted when free-agency started.

I think the new landscape in baseball is 10-12M for closer and 7-10M for premium setup-guy. DD didn't want to face that reality and rolled the dice. He got lucky to find one of this season's better setup men in Joba for the pittance he paid (which keeps going up given his incentives that he'll keep reaching.)

I was one of the few who didn't want Veras on the postseason roster. I thought he was a poor pickup and the team needed to keep looking after we saw him pitch. He performed in the playoffs like I thought he would. I'll say getting Soria is the pitcher they need in October.

Postseason Pen (in order of my confidence)
Soria
Chamberlain
Nathan
Smyly
Hardy
Al2

With the starters that makes for 10. DD will probably keep Coke instead of Hardy but I am still hopeful Hardy will change his mind. Note the absence of Krol.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

What do you think I need to concede if Kinsler finishes with a .775 OPS?

This amounts to conceding my position on Brandon Inge after either the 2006 or 2009 seasons. I guessed I should have changed my opinion of Austin Jackson after the 2012.

Cherishing Fluke/career year players is not my style. It is your's.


And not taking into account home park biases, one way or the other, is just ignorant.

I was wrong. You are nobody I have any interest in talking with. Take care.

 

[Rebbiv]

I was wrong. You are nobody I have any interest in talking with. Take care.

I accept your apology.

I agree we should avoid discussion.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I accept your apology.

I agree with should avoid discussion.

I didn't apologize to you.

I was wrong in that I thought you were somebody worth discussing baseball with. The only person I apologize to is myself for wasting my time and the other posters who had to read this crap about a light-hitting 3rd baseman.

 

[Rebbiv]

I apologize to you.

I was wrong in that I thought you were somebody worth discussing baseball with. The only person I apologize to is myself for wasting my time and the other posters who had to read this crap about a top 10 3rd baseman.

Ditto

 

[tomdalton22]

I didn't apologize to you.

I was wrong in that I thought you were somebody worth discussing baseball with. The only person I apologize to is myself for wasting my time and the other posters who had to read this crap about a light-hitting 3rd baseman.

While REB and I seem to disagree on many topics I find discussing baseball with him to be informative and at times enlightening. If you are not interested in hearing other's point of view you will probably be missing out on a lot (unless it is LKP on the Lion's board)

Just my 2 cents

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

While REB and I seem to disagree on many topics I find discussing baseball with him to be informative and at times enlightening. If you are not interested in hearing other's point of view you will probably be missing out on a lot (unless it is LKP on the Lion's board)

Just my 2 cents

I won't miss out on anything from that source but thanks for looking out.

I like LKP - he knows when he gets too excited and will apologize for it. He is constantly attacked on all fronts because he takes a...well...different point of view than what most others see. There are good posters here and most seem to know not to take themselves too seriously.

 

[Rebbiv]

While REB and I seem to disagree on many topics I find discussing baseball with him to be informative and at times enlightening. If you are not interested in hearing other's point of view you will probably be missing out on a lot (unless it is LKP on the Lion's board)

Just my 2 cents

Tom, it is all about respect. While you and I do disagree at times, we carry on our discussion with respect. We don't sling barbs and/or make it personal. You don't engage in banter.

I also think we agree more than we disagree. It is we just don't have to have that opinion re-validated by the other.

Some people expect their opinions to be validated by other posters. All I expect is when my reasoned argument is attacked, someone points out the flaw. Gotime909 recently did that in a thread (without citing the specific).

I am not an unreasonable poster. I listen to reasonable arguments. But in the end, I still get to formulate my own opinion. And if I express that opinion on a message board, then I expect some will take exemption to it. Great. But if you don't want me engaging in your opinions, especially if it deals with player assessments, then don't make them. If you don't want me being combative/snide/whatever adjective, then don't display that behavior to me first.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

If you don't want me being combative/snide/whatever adjective, then don't display that behavior to me first.

Read the thread. I extend the olive branch multiple times. You always come back with an insult and then accuse me of not agreeing with your stats when multiple times I do agree. In this thread alone I agree that Headley is a damn fine fielder. To that though, if his injuries hurt him at the plate wouldn't they impact him in the field too? I also agree that he has a strong BB%. He does strike out a lot though and if we work together we could divine from the stats if he was watching too many pitches go by to draw those walks. I was looking at his O and Z tendencies but that's not really indicative.

It's all good. I do respect the work you put in. For some reason you seem intent on insulting me and I am not going to retaliate in kind and give the mods a problem to deal with. I like the board and I respect most lifeforms (not big on snakes). When you insult me calling me "ignorant" for my opinions you are crossing a line to me and I have to disengage lest I be the person I don't want to be. That's all.

It's all good. Everyone is "worth" talking baseball with I feel but if is made personal and vindictive then I don't want to be part of it. I'm willing to wipe it all clean because I do all I can to not seek strife short of rolling over against my beliefs and opinions until I agree to change them.

You said something earlier that resonated with me when you said "Why can't I put him in the top 10?" I felt bad. You of course certainly can and I won't think any less or demean you. The problem (to me) is that if I say he isn't in the top 10 then there is an issue and I should be ridiculed.

 

[kalinecountry]

In other news the Tigers traded Corey Knebel and Jake Thompson for Joakim Soria.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

In other news the Tigers traded Corey Knebel and Jake Thompson for Joakim Soria.

What's your take? Is it too much?

I wanted Soria more than anyone else. I had Knebel gone in the trade to get a reliever so that wasn't anything but Thompson I didn't think DD would trade - he is all in for the season. I like it.

 

[Rebbiv]

Read the thread. I extend the olive branch multiple times. You always come back with an insult and then accuse me of not agreeing with your stats when multiple times I do agree. In this thread alone I agree that Headley is a damn fine fielder. To that though, if his injuries hurt him at the plate wouldn't they impact him in the field too? I also agree that he has a strong BB%. He does strike out a lot though and if we work together we could divine from the stats if he was watching too many pitches go by to draw those walks. I was looking at his O and Z tendencies but that's not really indicative.

It's all good. I do respect the work you put in. For some reason you seem intent on insulting me and I am not going to retaliate in kind and give the mods a problem to deal with. I like the board and I respect most lifeforms (not big on snakes). When you insult me calling me "ignorant" for my opinions you are crossing a line to me and I have to disengage lest I be the person I don't want to be. That's all.

It's all good. Everyone is "worth" talking baseball with I feel but if is made personal and vindictive then I don't want to be part of it. I'm willing to wipe it all clean because I do all I can to not seek strife short of rolling over against my beliefs and opinions until I agree to change them.

You said something earlier that resonated with me when you said "Why can't I put him in the top 10?" I felt bad. You of course certainly can and I won't think any less or demean you. The problem (to me) is that if I say he isn't in the top 10 then there is an issue and I should be ridiculed.

We are at a crossroads. You cite me to be the instigator, where I believe it is you who started and added "barbs" whenever possible. I would ask you to re-read the thread as well, because you certainly take your shots, even when you appear to be presenting an olive branch. But this would be just running in circles and not moving on.


I enjoy the debate. If you can keep it respectful and non-personal. I can also. But I also have the right to question where you develop your opinions.

I pretty much use 3 year Away splits when making my opinions and or player evaluations. I don't normally waiver from that. So when someone says I am "cherry-picking", I take offense. I can articulate why I use 3 years data and why I use Away. Does my system of evaluation mean everyone should do the same? Of course not. But if you are using something I can, what is wrong with asking for you to articulate your evaluation measurements. I believe we all use stats, it is just which ones. I understand most stats have biases. But some are way worse than other (BAVG to name one). And some stats are good for comparisons and some aren't. If someone can articulate to me how WAR is a great stat, good. Have at it. But I will point out the flaws/biases with that stat.

To me, and only to me, using one year's player stats cannot be predictive, especially if it was a fluke/career year (Darin Erstad). Not mitigating home park biases, also is my concern (hence why I use away stats). Todd Helton, Neifi Perez, etc

I ask questions to be rhetorical. For instance, my believes on Kinsler. (And not to open a can of worms). Many on here think I despise Kinsler. That is not true and some take what I have posted out of context.

So, based on 3 years Away and 3 years worth of UZR/150 stats, prior to this year, Kinsler is middle of the road to slightly below average for 2B, using THOSE METRICS. For the sake of debate, average. We are paying him $16 Million to be average and that salary is probably Top 2 or 3 money. This is where I have/had the issue and has/had nothing against Kinsler personally. And prior to this year, believe there wasn't much difference in production between Kinsler and Infante. But Infante is like $8 Mil a year cheaper. Kinsler's 2014 season is probably not going to alter his 3-year away averages by much if any. Now, if Kinsler finishes 2014 @ .775 OPS and repeats that again in 2015, then I will concede.

So, based on 3 years Away and 3 years worth of UZR/150 stats, Prince Fielder was in the Top 10 for 1B (even with the bad defense). Again, just using those metrics. While I agree he was probably "overpaid", it isn't too far away from other Top 10 1B in determines of deals made and value. So he probably has more value for the money, than what Kinsler represents. Then add the $30 Mil that DET sent to TEX and it becomes worse. I suggested they could have received a "relief" pitcher in the deal and believe we "gave up" too much.

Arlington is the best hitter's park in the AL. PetCo is the worst hitter's park. Should we compare players without factoring in the biases? Should we compare a BOS Righthanded hitter who would gets flyballs turned into singles or doubles with a player from OAK?

If every stadium was like the NFL, NBA and NHL and were all uniform, then total statistics would be the route to go. By each league, division and team parks have varying degrees of biases. If a stat (Defensive Runs Saved) takes into account Home Run Saving Catches, how does a LFer from BOS (Green Monster) rate against someone from NYY (3 foot high fence)? Do you expect the LFer for BOS to make up this bias by over compensating in all the away parks he plays in? You will never see a BOS LFer at the top of the DRS and/or UZR/150 list. This is just an example of how certain stats are impacted by home park biases. But that is just the OF bias. Normally, DRS and UZR/150 are fair stats.

I will also go on record to concede that I was wrong about Andrew Miller (I wasn't isolating his reliever stats from his starter stats) and he would be a good reliever to have. The debate would be at what cost it would take.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

What's your take? Is it too much?

I wanted Soria more than anyone else. I had Knebel gone in the trade to get a reliever so that wasn't anything but Thompson I didn't think DD would trade - he is all in for the season. I like it.

Steep price, but worth it in my opinion. I've heard some rumblings recently that Thompson and Knebel were a little disappointing/underachieving based on what the Tigers expected from each of them. They are obviously still REALLY young and are well regarded, but neither was going to help us win this year. With Max likely gone after the season (hopefully not, but odds would say yes), JV regressing hard (hopefully he stabilizes and rebounds), VMart a FA after the year (I think we bring him back), and so on, this might be our best last chance to win it all for a while. Soria really shores up the BP which is our current biggest weakness, so I'm all for it. Hoping we can add another reliever and/or a lefty bat now.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I did apologize earlier and I will again for being a dick about cherry-picking stats. You got mad at me in the Fister trade thread about BABIP which I have seen others use as a viable stat. You derided every statistic I presented that had Fister out of the top 30 (WHIP being one of them) when I did think they were relevant to the problems I saw in previous years with him watching every game.

You're more than welcome (as is anyone) to ask how I develop my opinions just don't insult me on the basis of them.

I don't use the same metric for every player. Because of injuries, because of family situations, because of weather just because I think I see a trend and I'm trying to be ahead of it. By adding human intellect to the numbers you have an idea how a roster will look and a relative indication of their success and failure. Often times my thoughts are based on what I see the GM doing and trying to be inside of his head. I think I've been pretty good at divining DD's next move. That is as much my goal as anything.

You said what the Tigers got back for Fielder was "Pure garbage" - I don't think that is out of context. You were very clear in your message and feelings about Ian. I don't think Headley is top 10 3rd baseman but I wouldn't label him as garbage. I reserve that label for very few humans and any player in MLB I'll admit I respect for the talent to get there. Maybe you want to recant the phrasing now. I like Ian Kinsler and I liked your away numbers (and I said so) when you posted them. He has exceeded my expectations and I think yours also. I know we both hope we will continue to.

As far as the home field. I understand and it does make a difference. I'm painting a broad brush stroke though when I think 10 guys are better than Headley. My logic for not factoring home ball park in as much with Headley is that he isn't a power hitter. I think a bigger park like that suits his hitting style fairly well and I would have expected more doubles. I did hear one analyst say he didn't expect him to hit for more power in Yankee Stadium because that's not his game.

 

[sggatecl]

I like LKP - he knows when he gets too excited and will apologize for it. He is constantly attacked on all fronts because he takes a...well...different point of view than what most others see. There are good posters here and most seem to know not to take themselves too seriously.

Bullshit. :lmao:

 

[jdeb]

The truth of the matter in regards to the trade for Soria is that DD trades Fister for basically nothing that helps us this year. Krohl had turned into what he really is and may need to be sent down. We also need a couple more lefties in the pen. Coke and Krohl = poop in the playoffs. Coke has looked better as of late but still don't trust him. Krohl had looked bad as of late.

We have nothing to offer for a left handed bat either. Going to be interesting.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Soria really shores up the BP which is our current biggest weakness, so I'm all for it. Hoping we can add another reliever and/or a lefty bat now.

Willing to put any names out there that you want?

Bastardo or Andrew Miller is my pick for another reliever.

Matt Joyce is the only Lefty bat I can see that could be available. Tampa Bay making a comeback sucks for the legitimate playoff teams. We needed to feed off of them.

Dexter Fowler? He is on the DL but should be starting a rehab assignment. Switch hitter and has a low batting average from the left side of the plate but sporting a .358 OBP as a LHB.

Other than that I don't see much help from the left side of the plate unless something creative happens. EZEKIEL CARRERA!!! The answer is already in the system. I'm not trolling Reb, I swear I'm not. I know you won't believe me but I think Ezekiel shoulda replaced Don Kelly awhile ago.

 

[Rebbiv]

I did apologize earlier and I will again for being a dick about cherry-picking stats. You got mad at me in the Fister trade thread about BABIP which I have seen others use as a viable stat. You derided every statistic I presented that had Fister out of the top 30 (WHIP being one of them) when I did think they were relevant to the problems I saw in previous years with him watching every game.

You're more than welcome (as is anyone) to ask how I develop my opinions just don't insult me on the basis of them.

I don't use the same metric for every player. Because of injuries, because of family situations, because of weather just because I think I see a trend and I'm trying to be ahead of it. By adding human intellect to the numbers you have an idea how a roster will look and a relative indication of their success and failure. Often times my thoughts are based on what I see the GM doing and trying to be inside of his head. I think I've been pretty good at divining DD's next move. That is as much my goal as anything.

You said what the Tigers got back for Fielder was "Pure garbage" - I don't think that is out of context. You were very clear in your message and feelings about Ian. I don't think Headley is top 10 3rd baseman but I wouldn't label him as garbage. I reserve that label for very few humans and any player in MLB I'll admit I respect for the talent to get there. Maybe you want to recant the phrasing now. I like Ian Kinsler and I liked your away numbers (and I said so) when you posted them. He has exceeded my expectations and I think yours also. I know we both hope we will continue to.

As far as the home field. I understand and it does make a difference. I'm painting a broad brush stroke though when I think 10 guys are better than Headley. My logic for not factoring home ball park in as much with Headley is that he isn't a power hitter. I think a bigger park like that suits his hitting style fairly well and I would have expected more doubles. I did hear one analyst say he didn't expect him to hit for more power in Yankee Stadium because that's not his game.

Was the value garbage or the player? Again, you are taking something out of context and trying to portrait me in some manner. Why? Just to justify yourself or validate yourself?

The value was garbage. We might be splitting hairs here. Just the like we didn't receive the right value for Fister and we gave up too much value for Soria. Is Soria garbage? Of course not.

Prior to the last two years, I had been defending Porcello as someone who was a valuable starting pitcher. Now that this is more evident, you don't see me proclaiming across this message board how right I was. I am not bringing up old posts where other posted that Porcello was garbage. And until right now, I hadn't even mentioned where I was vindicated by a players performance, good, bad, or indifferent.

You add more value to relievers and evidently so does DD. I do not. Got it. But, with that said, if DET doesn't make Soria the closer in would be lame. There is a possibility he could net us a compensation pick in a year or two. Nathan won't.

Just my impression (others can speak for themselves). But to say you are trying to get into DD's head just makes me laugh and not want to take you serious.

Rather than moving on, you bring up past scabs. Why? Especially if you truly meant you want to move on. I know what not to discuss with you going forward. I got it. I won't take another barb at you, ever. I probably won't engage in any discourse with you. Ever. Becuase you truly cannot move past this or show any respect back.