Tigers interested in + now with agreement in place for Joakim Soria

[Mitchrapp]

Is hyperbole your only method of communication? Show me ONE instance where I have even insinuated that SP have no effect on offense. You can't because you're making things up.

The Red Sox outscored Detroit 19-18 in the ALCS. The Tigers got one run off of their bullpen. The Tiger offense sucked in the late innings of the games because their pitchers were BETTER than the offense. It happens in baseball. Look at Boston's BP this season. Oh! They're still good pitchers...

"The biggest pitches of the playoffs are thrown by relievers." That says you think RP are more important. Take out 7 runs Detroit had in one game nd the offense shit the bed.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I fully agree as well, and so does Lynn Henning:

"If I were Tigers, I'd be very reluctant to make an expensive trade in 2014. Get help -- but only affordably. Too much future mortgaging."

"Suspect that trip to Anaheim this weekend will show why Tigers need more than a bullpen arm to go deep into the playoffs."


Henning has gone from party-line guy to actually having insightful analysis a lot of the time this year. Its a breath of fresh air from morons like Parker and Tony Paul.

That's great analysis. He says "Get help" Of course he doesn't quantify what "affordably" is - or the players in the minors that he deems as "future" and untouchable for a lowly relief pitcher.

Basically he is advocating they bring back Jose Veras since he'll be cheap. I'm never comfortable when I agree with Lynn Henning.

 

[Mitchrapp]

"Look at Boston's BP this season. Oh! They're still good pitchers." And they stink. Do you get the point..good both years but the team hasn't been.

 

[spockmaster]

Its a little hard to quantify stuff like that on twitter. And he didn't say "cheap", he said "affordable." Big difference, being that cheap implies shitty and affordable implies not overpaying, because we shouldnt.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

"The biggest pitches of the playoffs are thrown by relievers." That says you think RP are more important. Take out 7 runs Detroit had in one game nd the offense shit the bed.

I said the starting pitchers have to provide the bullpen with a chance to win the game. The synergistic comment covered it adequately. The game can't be won in the third inning. It has to happen in the ninth or later. A couple of runners get on in a 7-3 game and the game is in the balance.

Take out the 6 runs Boston had in one game and the Red Sox offense shit the bed. That's how the playoffs go.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I said the starting pitchers have to provide the bullpen with a chance to win the game. The synergistic comment covered it adequately. The game can't be won in the third inning. It has to happen in the ninth or later. A couple of runners get on in a 7-3 game and the game is in the balance.

Take out the 6 runs Boston had in one game and the Red Sox offense shit the bed. That's how the playoffs go.

Who cares how Boston scored..if you want to lay on who is more at faults..it's the offense. If you want to say it was the opposing P's, fine. But we didn't lose because of our BP.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

"Look at Boston's BP this season. Oh! They're still good pitchers." And they stink. Do you get the point..good both years but the team hasn't been.

Exactly my point. Having a shutdown bullpen doesn't mean shit if your offense and starters can't get you the ball with a chance to win.

They have good pitchers in their bullpen. Regardless of the team the pitchers they bring in do their job.

It goes back to my point of a team being composed of four elements:

Starting Pitchers
Starting Lineup
Bullpen
Bench Players

Tigers starters aren't as strong as in the past (JV and losing Fister - though Porcello has picked up some slack)

Starting Lineup is as good as ever for the most part. What they've lost has been made up for with the surprising play of JD and Kinsler.

Bullpen Nathan has never been this bad and Chamberlain has never been this good. Otherwise they are who we thought they were.

Bench Players have been pretty good. Romine and Kelly should be one player in an ideal world because the team needs a LH pinch-hitter for the postseason.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Who cares how Boston scored..if you want to lay on who is more at faults..it's the offense. If you want to say it was the opposing P's, fine. But we didn't lose because of our BP.

Who cares how Detroit scored then?

I think you saying it is the offense is wrong. So there you have it. Someone disagrees with your assertion it was the offense. I think it was Red Sox relievers being dominant and better.

You seem to think that having worse players pitching will result in more wins. I am comfortable thinking you are wrong.

 

[Rebbiv]

Kyle Lobstein is one of Reb's choices - that's why I'm using him.

If the prevailing logic is to believe that Soria and Lobstein (or VerHagen) offer the same chance to win a 3-2 game in October then I'm glad to call myself insane and go against the masses.

You are missing the entire train of thought. You honestly think 1 relief pitcher/closer, cost and consequences be damned, can change the team's outlook by that much? Most of the rest of us don't.

Keep in mind, this is a organization that signed Hanrahan to a ML contract and release someone. Only to later put him on the 60-day DL so they didn't have to release another person. Yet, when and if he can pitch, they still have to release someone. Yes, I know, we both agree there are players undeserving on the 40-man roster. But all teams have "disposal" players on the 40-man roster. Else they would have a difficult time acquiring new players.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

You are missing the entire train of thought. You honestly think 1 relief pitcher/closer, cost and consequences be damned, can change the team's outlook by that much? Most of the rest of us don't.

Keep in mind, this is a organization that signed Hanrahan to a ML contract and release someone. Only to later put him on the 60-day DL so they didn't have to release another person. Yet, when and if he can pitch, they still have to release someone. Yes, I know, we both agree there are players undeserving on the 40-man roster. But all teams have "disposal" players on the 40-man roster. Else they would have a difficult time acquiring new players.

I'm not missing any train of thought. I think those on that train are heading in the wrong direction. I disagree with the assertion. You have a few here who agree with it but there are enough in baseball who know Detroit is actively pursuing the names I'm talking about.

I was happy about Hanrahan being signed - if he will useful this season won't be known until after the non-waiver deadline has passed. I'm not comfortable waiting.

Soria vs. VerHagen who is better?
Benoit vs. Lobstein who is better?
Andrew Miller vs. Ian Krol who is better?

The team with better talent wins more games. It is the one constant from season to season.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Who cares how Detroit scored then?

I think you saying it is the offense is wrong. So there you have it. Someone disagrees with your assertion it was the offense. I think it was Red Sox relievers being dominant and better.

You seem to think that having worse players pitching will result in more wins. I am comfortable thinking you are wrong.

I never said that I said a good player vs average you will see virtually no difference. Remember 2012, Coke saved 2 games for us..and he's well he's not good. We don't need to trade for a RP.

 

[Rebbiv]

Exactly my point. Having a shutdown bullpen doesn't mean shit if your offense and starters can't get you the ball with a chance to win.

They have good pitchers in their bullpen. Regardless of the team the pitchers they bring in do their job.

It goes back to my point of a team being composed of four elements:

Starting Pitchers
Starting Lineup
Bullpen
Bench Players

Tigers starters aren't as strong as in the past (JV and losing Fister - though Porcello has picked up some slack)

Starting Lineup is as good as ever for the most part. What they've lost has been made up for with the surprising play of JD and Kinsler.

Bullpen Nathan has never been this bad and Chamberlain has never been this good. Otherwise they are who we thought they were.

Bench Players have been pretty good. Romine and Kelly should be one player in an ideal world because the team needs a LH pinch-hitter for the postseason.

Thinking our bench has been pretty good explains some things. And fyi....Kinsler has not been all that great. There are 7 players with a better OBP than him. The fact that he hasn't walked in over 69 Plate Appearances should tell you something.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I never said that I said a good player vs average you will see virtually no difference. Remember 2012, Coke saved 2 games for us..and he's well he's not good. We don't need to trade for a RP.

"Good player vs average" so tell me where you split that hair? Is Soria a good player and Hardy average? or is Benoit a good player and AL AL is average?

You're one of the few that has said the team doesn't need to bring in any RP.

 

[Mitchrapp]

You're one of the few that has said the team doesn't need to bring in any RP.

So?

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Thinking our bench has been pretty good explains some things. And fyi....Kinsler has not been all that great. There are 7 players with a better OBP than him. The fact that he hasn't walked in over 69 Plate Appearances should tell you something.

Bench has been pretty good, weren't you the one arguing for Rajai? Don Kelly has been hitting pretty well and proved a competent late inning replacement. Romine doesn't hit but his glove is above average - he sucks but not enough to mitigate the good of the other guys. What more do you want from Holaday?

You think Kinsler is garbage - I don't. He has been better offensively than most of us thought he would be was my only point.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

So?

So nothing. People love using "most people agree" as the basis for their opinion - it seems to provide them solace. Just making sure you know that you're close to being bold.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think Kinsler has been decent..offense only here. He's not failing but man his walk rate sucks. His OPS+ is just above average. He doesn't even try to work the count.

 

[Rebbiv]

I'm not missing any train of thought. I think those on that train are heading in the wrong direction. I disagree with the assertion. You have a few here who agree with it but there are enough in baseball who know Detroit is actively pursuing the names I'm talking about.

I was happy about Hanrahan being signed - if he will useful this season won't be known until after the non-waiver deadline has passed. I'm not comfortable waiting.

Soria vs. VerHagen who is better?
Benoit vs. Lobstein who is better?
Andrew Miller vs. Ian Krol who is better?

The team with better talent wins more games. It is the one constant from season to season.

First of all, those aren't either/or. And you accuse others of Hyperbole.

How about whether Lobstein could do a better job than Krol? Or VerHagen doing a better job than Chad Smith?

Heck, Blaine Hardy has barely a month at that big league level. Our we writing him off as an improvement over whichever rag arm he replaced?

You love 1-year wonders. What happened to your campaign for Kevin Whelan? Andrew Miller is another 1-year wonder. It would be like trading for Jarrod Washburn and then bitching when he fails.

If we traded for Benoit, who are we giving up (i.e. taking away from the ML team) and/or who taken away from the 25-man roster? You make the answers seem like cut and dry and they aren't.

 

[Thumb]

The team with better talent wins more games. It is the one constant from season to season.

In 2013 Oakland had a better record than us. Do you think they had better talent?

In 2012 Baltimore won more games than us, did they have better talent?



Also referring to an earlier post....if you think the 2006 Tigers were better then the 2006 Yankees (a team that missed scoring 1000 runs by 70 runs) just because we beat them in a 5 game series...then I just don't know what to say. Maybe take off the homer goggles for a minute and look at it objectively.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Looking at Kinsler further, he starts off counts 1-0 much more than 0-1 by a lot. But he has so few 2-0 and a minute amount of 3-0. It's like he has to swing at that second pitch.