Tigers interested in + now with agreement in place for Joakim Soria

[SouthOfMackinac]

First of all, those aren't either/or. And you accuse others of Hyperbole.

How about whether Lobstein could do a better job than Krol? Or VerHagen doing a better job than Chad Smith?

Heck, Blaine Hardy has barely a month at that big league level. Our we writing him off as an improvement over whichever rag arm he replaced?

You love 1-year wonders. What happened to your campaign for Kevin Whelan? Andrew Miller is another 1-year wonder. It would be like trading for Jarrod Washburn and then bitching when he fails.

If we traded for Benoit, who are we giving up (i.e. taking away from the ML team) and/or who taken away from the 25-man roster? You make the answers seem like cut and dry and they aren't.

They are an either or and that isn't hyperbole. Do you even know what those words mean? You try to condescend but you don't come across as someone who should throw stones from their glass house.

I say trade for Soria - you say keep Lobstein. Why would I compare Lobstein to Hardy? They are both middle of the road guys.

I never had a campaign for Kevin Whelan. I wanted to see him in Detroit in May when he was pitching well and the pen wasn't. I agreed with you that Hardy deserved the call. Chad Smith was another guy I wanted to see. But of course you don't remember that because it isn't "cute" to remember things accurately.

If you think this is the first time Andrew Miller is pitching like this in relief then I can't help you.

I liked the Washburn trade and didn't blame DD when it didn't work. That seems like something you would be more likely to do.

Trade for Benoit and option Knebel down move Jose Ortega off of the 40 man roster. Is that adequate to explain a fairly simple personnel move or do you need further detail?

 

[Rebbiv]

Bench has been pretty good, weren't you the one arguing for Rajai? Don Kelly has been hitting pretty well and proved a competent late inning replacement. Romine doesn't hit but his glove is above average - he sucks but not enough to mitigate the good of the other guys. What more do you want from Holaday?

You think Kinsler is garbage - I don't. He has been better offensively than most of us thought he would be was my only point.

No. Not at all. I was against signing Davis and still against him because he didn't fill a need at that time. Primarily because he is a righthanded hitter without power. I was all for a lefthanded corner OFer and someone that could hit for power. And this team could still benefit from a lefthanded/power hitter more than a reliever.


We have not one player that consistently on the bench that could be used as a pitch hitter. You named 3 players on the bench that al are being cited as defense reasons. None of the bench players would/should be used as a pinch hitter. Ever.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

In 2013 Oakland had a better record than us. Do you think they had better talent?

In 2012 Baltimore won more games than us, did they have better talent?



Also referring to an earlier post....if you think the 2006 Tigers were better then the 2006 Yankees (a team that missed scoring 1000 runs by 70 runs) just because we beat them in a 5 game series...then I just don't know what to say. Maybe take off the homer goggles for a minute and look at it objectively.

So wins and losses are the only things that determine a team's talent? Divisional play and other factors don't mean anything. Got it.

I thought the Tigers had more talent going in to that series. Had nothing to do with being a homer and everything to do with an aging Yankee team that just didn't seem ready for the postseason. That was just my opinion.

Oakland Detroit in 2013 was a push to me. That was a great series. Baltimore in 2012? I don't know, Tigers had better starters and a deeper lineup. I'll go with Detroit.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

No. Not at all. I was against signing Davis and still against him because he didn't fill a need at that time. Primarily because he is a righthanded hitter without power. I was all for a lefthanded corner OFer and someone that could hit for power. And this team could still benefit from a lefthanded/power hitter more than a reliever.


We have not one player that consistently on the bench that could be used as a pitch hitter. You named 3 players on the bench that al are being cited as defense reasons. None of the bench players would/should be used as a pinch hitter. Ever.

I thought he filled a need when it came to speed on the team. I wanted Choo in the off-season also but that didn't satisfy your power requirement.

So if we walk down the corner OF path - who do you want that you see as a target? I won't disagree if you pick a guy that will alter the team's chances. I assume you would sit Hunter?

And for sure the bench is light on pinch-hitters. That is the beauty of playing in the AL but in the WS I would want it addressed which is why I'd go all in for Zobrist. I would gut this pig of a farm system for 2014 and 2015. But I'm a guy who never looked back on the Smoltz trade with any resentment.

 

[Rebbiv]

They are an either or and that isn't hyperbole. Do you even know what those words mean? You try to condescend but you don't come across as someone who should throw stones from their glass house.

I say trade for Soria - you say keep Lobstein. Why would I compare Lobstein to Hardy? They are both middle of the road guys.

I never had a campaign for Kevin Whelan. I wanted to see him in Detroit in May when he was pitching well and the pen wasn't. I agreed with you that Hardy deserved the call. Chad Smith was another guy I wanted to see. But of course you don't remember that because it isn't "cute" to remember things accurately.

If you think this is the first time Andrew Miller is pitching like this in relief then I can't help you.

I liked the Washburn trade and didn't blame DD when it didn't work. That seems like something you would be more likely to do.

Trade for Benoit and option Knebel down move Jose Ortega off of the 40 man roster. Is that adequate to explain a fairly simple personnel move or do you need further detail?

What the fuck are you talking about?


Andrew Miller Walk Rates

2006 = 8.7
2007 = 5.5
2008 = 4.7
2009 = 4.8
2010 = 7.2
2011 = 5.7
2012 = 4.5
2013 = 5.0

2014 = 2.8

What part of "one year wonder" don't you understand? Can you explain why at 29 he dramatically improved his walk rate? Do you even know if it is repeatable after this year?


You keep evading the evidence where acquiring 1 relief pitcher is going to dramatically improve this team.


You think you talk a good game....but you have nothing to back your claims, except Newspaper writers.

 

[Rebbiv]

I thought he filled a need when it came to speed on the team. I wanted Choo in the off-season also but that didn't satisfy your power requirement.

So if we walk down the corner OF path - who do you want that you see as a target? I won't disagree if you pick a guy that will alter the team's chances. I assume you would sit Hunter?

And for sure the bench is light on pinch-hitters. That is the beauty of playing in the AL but in the WS I would want it addressed which is why I'd go all in for Zobrist. I would gut this pig of a farm system for 2014 and 2015. But I'm a guy who never looked back on the Smoltz trade with any resentment.

I wasn't against Choo. Power doesn't necessary mean HR power.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

What the fuck are you talking about?


Andrew Miller Walk Rates

2006 = 8.7
2007 = 5.5
2008 = 4.7
2009 = 4.8
2010 = 7.2
2011 = 5.7
2012 = 4.5
2013 = 5.0

2014 = 2.8

What part of "one year wonder" don't you understand? Can you explain why at 29 he dramatically improved his walk rate? Do you even know if it is repeatable after this year?


You keep evading the evidence where acquiring 1 relief pitcher is going to dramatically improve this team.


You think you talk a good game....but you have nothing to back your claims, except Newspaper writers.

You think you talk a good game but cherry pick stats. The difference between us is that I'm willing to concede there are other ways to get it done.

What evidence do you want? I can't use WAR because you don't agree with that stat. I can't use ERA or else I wouldn't have to prove anything to you. I can't use blown saves because the difference between Nathan and Street means nothing to you in that department.

What I have backing me up is the knowledge that Joakim Soria and Joaquin Benoit are better pitchers than Blaine Hardy and Corey Knebel they are better than Al2 and Phil Coke. I know that better players win more games than worse ones.

Miller hasn't had a BAA of higher than .216 since 2012. With his improved control he projects to continue to keep guys from getting hits.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I wasn't against Choo. Power doesn't necessary mean HR power.

Mark the date. We agree on something.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

What the fuck are you talking about?


Andrew Miller Walk Rates

2006 = 8.7
2007 = 5.5
2008 = 4.7
2009 = 4.8
2010 = 7.2
2011 = 5.7
2012 = 4.5
2013 = 5.0

2014 = 2.8

What part of "one year wonder" don't you understand? Can you explain why at 29 he dramatically improved his walk rate? Do you even know if it is repeatable after this year?


You keep evading the evidence where acquiring 1 relief pitcher is going to dramatically improve this team.


You think you talk a good game....but you have nothing to back your claims, except Newspaper writers.

Where is your evidence that a corner outfielder is going to dramatically improve this team?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Where is your evidence that a corner outfielder is going to dramatically improve this team?

Depends on what cof. The difference is you actually mentioned a RP, Miller.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Depends on what cof. The difference is you actually mentioned a RP, Miller.

Yes, because I am willing to go on a limb and put names with conjecture so people can call me an idiot or say "Hey, I like him - he's been pretty decent the last few seasons and last year's playoff. I wonder who we'd have to give up."

I'll agree the Tigers could go out and get Soria, Benoit, Miller and the King of Siam and still get bounced in the first round of the playoffs because the starters get hammered and the offense scores no runs. They lose every game 5-1 and the BP gives up 0 runs in 15 innings.

Right now I envision a scenario in October where the score is 3-1 Tigers in the 7th and they are bringing in ...... ?? No, I don't have the fangraph stat that shows I don't want that pitcher to be Drew VerHagen or even Al Al. I just know from years of watching baseball I'd feel better if that guy was Chamberlain with Soria and Nathan to follow.

It's that simple. I'm sorry to be unduly harsh. I don't ever want to belittle other people's knowledge of any sport. That seems to be the first direction a few posters go here. We can disagree and none of us ignorant. That's when it breaks down.

So if they got Miller and then failed either because or indifferent to him everyone can say "haha told you dummy." and I'm okay with that.

Where is the prediction of xxxx outfielder will make this team more ready for October?

 

[Rebbiv]

We both want Seth Smith. I would venture to "guess" that Seth Smith would bring more wins to this team than Andrew Miller. Both short term and long term.

 

[spockmaster]

We both want Seth Smith. I would venture to "guess" that Seth Smith would bring more wins to this team than Andrew Miller. Both short term and long term.

I want Smith too, though we're unlikely to get him. SD just signed him to an extension, I doubt they want to trade him.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

We both want Seth Smith. I would venture to "guess" that Seth Smith would bring more wins to this team than Andrew Miller. Both short term and long term.

And who would you be willing to trade and think would be acceptable for Seth Smith?

There is no long term with Andrew Miller as he is UFA at the end of the season and I wouldn't be willing to give up (or required to) as much because of that contract status. I see their impacts being about equal. Aside from Seth Smith is there any other player that you would target?

DD is making calls to other teams for relievers. These things leak and I don't think it is a guess to say that he is looking for bullpen help and not corner outfield. The GM of my favorite (and yours) thinks he'll get more wins by getting a reliever. He's also the guy who traded Fister for nothing. Hmmm...Kidding! I like DD still.

 

[spockmaster]

And who would you be willing to trade and think would be acceptable for Seth Smith?

There is no long term with Andrew Miller as he is UFA at the end of the season and I wouldn't be willing to give up (or required to) as much because of that contract status. I see their impacts being about equal. Aside from Seth Smith is there any other player that you would target?

DD is making calls to other teams for relievers. These things leak and I don't think it is a guess to say that he is looking for bullpen help and not corner outfield. The GM of my favorite (and yours) thinks he'll get more wins by getting a reliever. He's also the guy who traded Fister for nothing. Hmmm...Kidding! I like DD still.

Why. I'm curious to know how an OF who crushes RHP and would get the majority of starts against them in one of the two corner spots the rest of the season would make the same impact as a guy who might throw 20-30 innings for us the rest of the year (if that, given his current inning load compared to what he's thrown as a reliever the last few years.)

 

[Rebbiv]

And who would you be willing to trade and think would be acceptable for Seth Smith?

There is no long term with Andrew Miller as he is UFA at the end of the season and I wouldn't be willing to give up (or required to) as much because of that contract status. I see their impacts being about equal. Aside from Seth Smith is there any other player that you would target?

DD is making calls to other teams for relievers. These things leak and I don't think it is a guess to say that he is looking for bullpen help and not corner outfield. The GM of my favorite (and yours) thinks he'll get more wins by getting a reliever. He's also the guy who traded Fister for nothing. Hmmm...Kidding! I like DD still.

He also traded a fair pitcher for a scrub SS and traded a backup infielder for 9 game rental and $1 Million in salary. He also signed a damaged pitcher to an Major League contract, only to wind up putting him on the 60-day DL. Yup, I trust DD right now with personnel decisions.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Why.

Because the team currently has corner outfielders that I believe will perform to about the same adequacy as Seth Smith. Any increase in production he would provide would be roughly equivalent to the difference of Miller vs. Hardy.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...4&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

That's a link for relievers in baseball. Andrew Miller is 10th and has a 1.4 WAR. Phil Coke is a 0.0. Blaine Hardy is 0.1. A 1.3 difference.

Replacing Torii Hunter with Seth Smith would be a 2.0 WAR increase. Which is greater than Miller over the other guys, you can say .7 is more than "roughly" and I won't argue as long as you are swearing that WAR is a useful stat., so I'm on board with that. Torii has been hitting better of late but he can come off the bench for me which is weak. What do we need to give up to get it done?

 

[spockmaster]

Because the team currently has corner outfielders that I believe will perform to about the same adequacy as Seth Smith. Any increase in production he would provide would be roughly equivalent to the difference of Miller vs. Hardy.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...4&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

That's a link for relievers in baseball. Andrew Miller is 10th and has a 1.4 WAR. Phil Coke is a 0.0. Blaine Hardy is 0.1. A 1.3 difference.

Replacing Torii Hunter with Seth Smith would be a 2.0 WAR increase. Which is greater than Miller over the other guys, you can say .7 is more than "roughly" and I won't argue as long as you are swearing that WAR is a useful stat., so I'm on board with that. Torii has been hitting better of late but he can come off the bench for me which is weak. What do we need to give up to get it done?

Then theres the disconnect, as I think he's clearly better than Hunter on both sides of the ball, and would almost certainly be better than Dirks (if he ever makes it back), and he's infinitely better than Davis vs RHP. Start Smith vs RHP, Davis vs LHP, JDMart vs everyone if he keeps hitting, and reserve Hunter as a PH off the bench, which is about all he's good for these days given his defense and streakiness.


As far as what it would take to get Smith? A lot, possibly more than we can afford, especially if we tried to get Benoit too (im not opposed to adding relievers to other deals), but I don't see why we shouldnt try given that Smith and Benoit are both under contract for a few years so giving up a lot wouldnt hurt as much as giving up stuff for a rental RP. Unfortunaltely I dont see it happening as DD seems content to run with Dirks whenever/if he gets back and Delmon 2.0, and is obsessed with patching up the bullpen.


I wanna make my position clear: I am not opposed to upgrading the bullpen in some way. I am just 100% opposed to overpaying for a reliever, especially a rental having a career year (ie, Miller this year and Veras last year.) I am also not a fan of trading for a reliever and just a reliever, because I feel that to be overpaying for what the return generally is on a reliever in value for what you traded for them. As part of a larger deal, sure.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

He also traded a fair pitcher for a scrub SS and traded a backup infielder for 9 game rental and $1 Million in salary. He also signed a damaged pitcher to an Major League contract, only to wind up putting him on the 60-day DL. Yup, I trust DD right now with personnel decisions.

Who is the fair pitcher? Jose Alvarez? You are still pining over Jose Alvarez? I'm surprised to see you so sentimental about him. He is on my watch list. I don't think he'll be much in MLB but it will be interesting to track.

Gonzalez won opening day on his own! He also stopped an armed robbery and saved an endangered species that day. That's worth $1 million. Lombo isn't good anyway.

Hanrahan is the damaged pitcher? Well yeah. He thought it would be like Brian Wilson last year. It still could be.

You left out signing and promoting JD Martinez, promoting Suarez and....okay I'm out of good moves. But that's because he set the roster up so well except for the bullpen. Which is my point.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Then theres the disconnect, as I think he's clearly better than Hunter on both sides of the ball, and would almost certainly be better than Dirks (if he ever makes it back), and he's infinitely better than Davis vs RHP. Start Smith vs RHP, Davis vs LHP, JDMart vs everyone if he keeps hitting, and reserve Hunter as a PH off the bench, which is about all he's good for these days given his defense and streakiness.


As far as what it would take to get Smith? A lot, possibly more than we can afford, especially if we tried to get Benoit too (im not opposed to adding relievers to other deals), but I don't see why we shouldnt try given that Smith and Benoit are both under contract for a few years so giving up a lot wouldnt hurt as much as giving up stuff for a rental RP.

I did post the numbers and I agree Seth Smith is much better than Torii Hunter on both sides of the ball. No disconnect. I also think Andrew Miller is far better than Phil Coke and Blaine Hardy combined. In terms of ability and or experience in pressure games.

What specific names would you be willing to part with from the Tigers and not say they gave up too much? I like the idea of Smith and Benoit a lot, I'll throw some names at what I think it would take.

Thompson, Turley, Ray (two of the three), Knebel, McCann, Travis and apparently Wily Adames is being spoken of highly in terms of ceiling. A six for two player swap. You're taking on quite a bit of salary in the trade of course. Swallowing a lot of pride for letting Benoit walk too.