Tired of talking about 2013 and before.....

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Every QB has those too. You can't assume Stafford had more or less than others.

As long as they are not ints meaning the DB messed up, I'm still fine with the true int number of 12 and some close calls.

The point is I'm good with 12 actually happening that were his fault given his attempts. He gets a pat on the back for that coupled with 29 TDs and leading this offense on many long drives. Drops and lack of separation and lack of turnovers mean you should be thankful we have Stafford.

You can't have it both ways on everything. You can't say 12 INTs is even a good number unless you go through every other QBs tape and determine which of their INTs weren't their fault as well. For all we know, 12 INTs all on Stafford could still be a terrible number.

The point about dropped INTs or INTs broken up by the WR are just as valid. You say that that happens to every QB, but you provide no evidence. For all we know, Stafford had a dozen more dropped INTs while other QBs only had a handful.

You can't keep comparing apples to oranges only when it supports your case. Either take everything equal (total INTs, bad decision rate, "real" INTs for all QBs, etc) or don't bother.

 

[LKP]

You can't have it both ways on everything. You can't say 12 INTs is even a good number unless you go through every other QBs tape and determine which of their INTs weren't their fault as well. For all we know, 12 INTs all on Stafford could still be a terrible number.

The point about dropped INTs or INTs broken up by the WR are just as valid. You say that that happens to every QB, but you provide no evidence. For all we know, Stafford had a dozen more dropped INTs while other QBs only had a handful.

You can't keep comparing apples to oranges only when it supports your case. Either take everything equal (total INTs, bad decision rate, "real" INTs for all QBs, etc) or don't bother.

I don't have to look at any other QB. 12 on 634 attempts is something I can live with given his other produciton. Every other QB has completely different scenarios in weapons, schedules, attempts needed by the QB, Olines, running game, turnovers from the D, fumbles. To me you can't really compare QBs. I can live with 12 picks his fault in that many attempts given his other production. He puts the Lions in a position to win. But he can't do it alone. It's a team sport and I can easily point out ints that aren't his fault. And every single one of his TDs I think was a good throw. If it's caught that's all I'm worried about.

If Russel Wilson had to deal with weapon injuries, low turnovers by his defense, 15 drives lost from fumbles and had to throw it 634 times to weapons not getitng separation, yes Wilson could easily throw 19 ints in a season. If a team is relying on Wilson only to move the ball, then he could throw 19 ints. Seattle didn't have to rely on Wilson only thanks to turnovers.

 

[LKP]

Ints is also a volume stat. More attempts give more int opps. More attempts can be due to first downs converted by the offense (which the Lions do well). A Qb throwing only 400 times a full 16 game season, I just don't consider them a good QB just yet. They need the rest of the team to move the ball or keep the score low or get turnovers.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Every QB has those too. You can't assume Stafford had more or less than others.

As long as they are not ints meaning the DB messed up, I'm still fine with the true int number of 12 and some close calls.

The point is I'm good with 12 actually happening that were his fault given his attempts. He gets a pat on the back for that coupled with 29 TDs and leading this offense on many long drives. Drops and lack of separation and lack of turnovers mean you should be thankful we have Stafford.

That's what I'm saying. Every QB has WRs that drop passes on them. Sometimes WRs catch balls they shouldn't.

I'm glad we have Stafford over some of the other QB's in the league. I'm still curious where you rank him though. Here is my list for you (and all) to shred:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Andrew Luck
6. Russell Wilson
7. Phillip Rivers
8. Colin Kaepernick
9. Joe Flacco
10. Matt Stafford

Numbers 5-9 are sort of in order but I wouldn't fight against them being changed around. RGIII is a notable omission, I don't know what he'll be this season so I'm holding off on him. I'm looking at what these QB's could do with the tools the Lions have. I think Mayhew has assembled a talented offense and any of these QB's could have a good season here.

I'll admit I started him at 14 but kept moving him up because forget Matt Ryan and Eli Manning. It is 2014 and I think Stafford will throw a better ball to better players this year than those other guys. So I'm a homer now too with Stafford in my top 10. Pass the Kool-Aid!

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

I don't have to look at any other QB. 12 on 634 attempts is something I can live with given his other produciton. Every other QB has completely different scenarios in weapons, schedules, attempts needed by the QB, Olines, running game, turnovers from the D, fumbles. To me you can't really compare QBs. I can live with 12 picks his fault in that many attempts given his other production. He puts the Lions in a position to win. But he can't do it alone. It's a team sport and I can easily point out ints that aren't his fault. And every single one of his TDs I think was a good throw. If it's caught that's all I'm worried about.

If Russel Wilson had to deal with weapon injuries, low turnovers by his defense, 15 drives lost from fumbles and had to throw it 634 times to weapons not getitng separation, yes Wilson could easily throw 19 ints in a season. If a team is relying on Wilson only to move the ball, then he could throw 19 ints. Seattle didn't have to rely on Wilson only thanks to turnovers.

Your first sentence is entirely the problem. You are ok with the numbers, but you being ok with them tells us nothing about their actual value. Further, you note 12 "true" INTs because they were actual INTs entirely attributed to Stafford, yet you ignore potential INTs that were also directly attributed to Stafford. So bad decisions/mechanics/throws only matter if they result in an INT, but also only if they were all Stafford's fault. That doesn't tell me anything but the most optimistic possible number. By ignoring comparisons to every other QB (which is the actual merit of a said player), you have no idea if that idealistically optimistic number is even good.

Also, your point about Wilson is entirely conjecture. This is the same both ways argument. You say Wilson could throw 19 INTs in similar attempts as if that possibility is a valid indictment or comparison. It's not. It's guessing masquerading as a conclusion. Wilson MIGHT throw 19 INTs in a ton of attempts, Stafford DID. That's not a comparison of like things.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

That's what I'm saying. Every QB has WRs that drop passes on them. Sometimes WRs catch balls they shouldn't.

I'm glad we have Stafford over some of the other QB's in the league. I'm still curious where you rank him though. Here is my list for you (and all) to shred:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Andrew Luck
6. Russell Wilson
7. Phillip Rivers
8. Colin Kaepernick
9. Joe Flacco
10. Matt Stafford

Numbers 5-9 are sort of in order but I wouldn't fight against them being changed around. RGIII is a notable omission, I don't know what he'll be this season so I'm holding off on him. I'm looking at what these QB's could do with the tools the Lions have. I think Mayhew has assembled a talented offense and any of these QB's could have a good season here.

I'll admit I started him at 14 but kept moving him up because forget Matt Ryan and Eli Manning. It is 2014 and I think Stafford will throw a better ball to better players this year than those other guys. So I'm a homer now too with Stafford in my top 10. Pass the Kool-Aid!

I wouldn't put Flacco that high. Outside of his admittedly great superbowl run, he's been pretty pedestrian during his career. I'd put Matt Ryan and Tony Romo above Stafford too.

In fact, I think any list should have Romo and Stafford next to each other (with edge to Romo). Romo puts up similar yardage rates on a better completion %. He does this with an inferior O-line, inferior D, and roughly equal receiving corps. They also both melt down in the 4th, so neither gets an advantage there.

 

[LKP]

Your first sentence is entirely the problem. You are ok with the numbers, but you being ok with them tells us nothing about their actual value. Further, you note 12 "true" INTs because they were actual INTs entirely attributed to Stafford, yet you ignore potential INTs that were also directly attributed to Stafford. So bad decisions/mechanics/throws only matter if they result in an INT, but also only if they were all Stafford's fault. That doesn't tell me anything but the most optimistic possible number. By ignoring comparisons to every other QB (which is the actual merit of a said player), you have no idea if that idealistically optimistic number is even good.

Also, your point about Wilson is entirely conjecture. This is the same both ways argument. You say Wilson could throw 19 INTs in similar attempts as if that possibility is a valid indictment or comparison. It's not. It's guessing masquerading as a conclusion. Wilson MIGHT throw 19 INTs in a ton of attempts, Stafford DID. That's not a comparison of like things.

Every QB has a different scenario. You can't compare them. Especially ones that only throw it 400 times a season. Wilson could be a pick machine in Detroit. Wilson hasn't proven shit until he leads an offense on his own like Stafford.

12 on that many attempts is acceptable. Why? Because 12 with a normal amount of fumbles 8-10 is a good turnover takeaway number (for any team). Given Staffords proudction, 22 turnovers is very acceptable. So like I said, I don't give a shit what any other QB does in their different scenarios and in their cushy world of defenses forcing turnovers for them.

Since we upgraded the weapons, the 7 not his fault should reduce. And then you factor in the TDs, first downs, yards and what he does for this offense despite little help, Stafford is a good QB we are lukcy to have.

 

[LKP]

Linehan and Schwartz had a reason for not trying to revamp Stafford. Stafford is a good QB and they knew exaclty what the scenario was for him and what Stafford had to deal with the past 2 seasons. They watched the tape too. However, that is still a poor mindset as you should always look for improvement even if you are good already like Stafford is. Therefore, Schwartz/Linehan got canned and the Lions hired QB gurus to take his good and make him better. And Mayhew clearly recognized he needed healthy multiple weapons like every elite QB usually has. Brady is the exception to that rule in some years. Rodgers, Brees, Peyton. Multiple weapons. Every year

 

[mhughes0021]

That's what I'm saying. Every QB has WRs that drop passes on them. Sometimes WRs catch balls they shouldn't.

I'm glad we have Stafford over some of the other QB's in the league. I'm still curious where you rank him though. Here is my list for you (and all) to shred:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Andrew Luck
6. Russell Wilson
7. Phillip Rivers
8. Colin Kaepernick
9. Joe Flacco
10. Matt Stafford

Numbers 5-9 are sort of in order but I wouldn't fight against them being changed around. RGIII is a notable omission, I don't know what he'll be this season so I'm holding off on him. I'm looking at what these QB's could do with the tools the Lions have. I think Mayhew has assembled a talented offense and any of these QB's could have a good season here.

I'll admit I started him at 14 but kept moving him up because forget Matt Ryan and Eli Manning. It is 2014 and I think Stafford will throw a better ball to better players this year than those other guys. So I'm a homer now too with Stafford in my top 10. Pass the Kool-Aid!

South, youre going down a slippery slope and since youre new I thought id just warn you. You are asking reasonable questions and trying to give logical explanations of why you feel a certain way. Nothing LKP ever says has to deal with logic and reason. So if you want to continue down this path your logic and reason can quickly turn into rage and insanity. LKP should come with a FDA warning label.

 

[LKP]

South, youre going down a slippery slope and since youre new I thought id just warn you. You are asking reasonable questions and trying to give logical explanations of why you feel a certain way. Nothing LKP ever says has to deal with logic and reason. So if you want to continue down this path your logic and reason can quickly turn into rage and insanity. LKP should come with a FDA warning label.

Everything I say is logical and I look at the whole picture. You are just blindly negative.

 

[mhughes0021]

Linehan and Schwartz had a reason for not trying to revamp Stafford.

5 years of average to below average completion %......the only reason for not wanting to change that is stupidity.

 

[mhughes0021]

Everything I say is logical and I look at the whole picture. You are just blindly negative.

what did I ever say about Stafford that is negative and not fact?

He has poor footwork
Hes awful moving within the pocket
Hes awful throwing out of the pocket
Hes not accurate
Hes had multiple years of failing to win games down the stretch

All factual....

 

[LKP]

5 years of average to below average completion %......the only reason for not wanting to change that is stupidity.

63% in 2011. 2 years of weapon injuries/no turnovers/various run support/high drop %. 2010 he only played 2.5 games and did really well in those games. 2009 rookie year wiht only Calvin and rookie Pettigrew of course it will be bad.

The past 2 seasons Stafford played well but didn't get support for various reasons (injuries being one of them). Mayhew properly gave him Tate and Ebron. Problem solved. Stafford's true numbers can shine now.

 

[LKP]

what did I ever say about Stafford that is negative and not fact?

He has poor footwork
Hes awful moving within the pocket
Hes awful throwing out of the pocket
Hes not accurate
Hes had multiple years of failing to win games down the stretch

All factual....

He can move in the pocket just fine (low sacks help prove this too). He is accurate (drops/separation hurts him). Stafford does enough to win games, the team has let him down. Ravens game is perfect example. Bucs game another one. Steelrs 4th Quarter he played well but was constantly let down by his team. And then you have at Bears game, at Redskins, Vikings game, Dallas game for wins.

Footwork is average. That is the one area he needs improvement.

 

[mhughes0021]

63% in 2011. 2 years of weapon injuries/no turnovers/various run support/high drop %. 2010 he only played 2.5 games and did really well in those games. 2009 rookie year wiht only Calvin and rookie Pettigrew of course it will be bad.

The past 2 seasons Stafford played well but didn't get support for various reasons (injuries being one of them). Mayhew properly gave him Tate and Ebron. Problem solved. Stafford's true numbers can shine now.

63% is average...nothing to brag about
injuries blah blah blah....
plenty of run support last year.
plenty of support....more support than most QBs get 1st rd wr 1st rd rb, two 1st rd tes, 1st rd lt, 1st rd rg, new coach, new ocord, new qb coach....how much more support do you need?
Stafford "true numbers" are below average.

 

[LKP]

63% is average...nothing to brag about
injuries blah blah blah....
plenty of run support last year.
plenty of support....more support than most QBs get 1st rd wr 1st rd rb, two 1st rd tes, 1st rd lt, 1st rd rg, new coach, new ocord, new qb coach....how much more support do you need?
Stafford "true numbers" are below average.

Stafford had 6 bad rushing days, 2 bad pass pro, little turnover support and injured weapons with drops and separation problems. He has little support. It's all on him. He actually did well. TDs, 3rd down % and only 12 true ints.

63% with 41 TDS. Yeah real average. Rolls eyes. Notice the one year his weapons were healthy and he got turnover support.

Stafford has yet to play with Ebron and Tate. He's going to have a big year if the weapons stay heatlhy. It's obvious.

And you know what Staffords completion % was to Burleson and Pettigrew combined last year. 68.3%. 70.5% when you include Bush and Bell. Now Hughes. STFU.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

South, youre going down a slippery slope and since youre new I thought id just warn you. You are asking reasonable questions and trying to give logical explanations of why you feel a certain way. Nothing LKP ever says has to deal with logic and reason. So if you want to continue down this path your logic and reason can quickly turn into rage and insanity. LKP should come with a FDA warning label.

Hehe, I've lurked long enough to not be scared but thanks.

LKP isn't as off as it appears. I think he has some good logic and supports it with some numbers. I remember watching Monte Clark on Thanksgiving in the 70's. I've been Lionized.

This team has an extraordinary amount of talent on the offensive side of the ball. I'll say then Van Noy is the guy I really want to see play. I want to watch him and Ansah make a difference on D to force quick passes so Slay can intercept them and make Touchdown! Close your eyes and believe. The Big Buck is out there. Everyone is hunting him but they can't find him.

Restore the Roar! (I still have that hat)

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I wouldn't put Flacco that high. Outside of his admittedly great superbowl run, he's been pretty pedestrian during his career. I'd put Matt Ryan and Tony Romo above Stafford too.

In fact, I think any list should have Romo and Stafford next to each other (with edge to Romo). Romo puts up similar yardage rates on a better completion %. He does this with an inferior O-line, inferior D, and roughly equal receiving corps. They also both melt down in the 4th, so neither gets an advantage there.

I think Flacco with these tools would do better than Stafford. Flacco throws one of the best deep balls in the game. He and Calvin would have a field day I think.

Matt Ryan I had up there but ehh, Stafford does have a 5k passing season and can make some throws that I don't think Ryan can. I like Ryan's poise and I won't bust balls if you want him ahead of Stafford.

Romo. I feel like he melts down more than Stafford. Stafford is a rally kind of guy because he melts down in the second and third then throws for 300 yds in the comeback attempt.

Not bad though, so you have Stafford at 11.

 

[tonyballs]

http://www.sportsmedia101.com/newyo...on-te-eric-ebron-due-to-personality-concerns/

Jerry Reese, Giants.

Didn't say he wasn't a top ten pick though. Only that Reese got turned off by him because of his attitude lol.

 

[mhughes0021]

I think Flacco with these tools would do better than Stafford. Flacco throws one of the best deep balls in the game. He and Calvin would have a field day I think.

Matt Ryan I had up there but ehh, Stafford does have a 5k passing season and can make some throws that I don't think Ryan can. I like Ryan's poise and I won't bust balls if you want him ahead of Stafford.

Romo. I feel like he melts down more than Stafford. Stafford is a rally kind of guy because he melts down in the second and third then throws for 300 yds in the comeback attempt.

Not bad though, so you have Stafford at 11.

Ive gone thru it too many times before so I wont repost and do the rework.....but its ridiculous how many time weve been completely shut out of entire halves of games last year. Stafford isn't consistent enough. And no....I don't blame it on injuries.

Riffling the ball 3 feet over a guys outstretched arms who is 6'7'' has nothing to do with injuries. People wouldn't keep bringing up mechanics if that was a seldom thing....it happens ALL the time....in EVERY game. Which drops his comp %. Chalking it up to drops and injuries is not the problem.....and not fixable....he will always have drops. Stafford tends to get more drops than any other qb....cause he has no touch and bad footwork.

If Stafford was a top 11 qb last year....we would have been in the playoffs. Top 11 qbs don't lose 8 games in a row in multiple seasons....especially since youre saying were "very talented" or even better something LKP states often "we have no holes." A stacked team with no holes doesn't lose as much as we do....Reality is were not stacked and our qb has played very average. Mayhew has gone all in and has a rd 1 draft pick at basically every position on the offense now lmao......expectations are now out the window.....if you cant be ABOVE AVERAGE now then youre pretty much awful at your job.