Wide spread election fraud 2020

[Spartanmack]

the way I look at it, nobody could do any worse that Don. The guy we have in charge just kept denying it even existed. I think Hillary would have listened to people smarter than she is...I don't think Trump listens to anyone.

Maybe both sides do say divisive things, I just think that Trump goes out of his way to fan the flames. Every word out of his mouth makes my skin crawl.

Trump did a lot, despite resistance from both the opposition and the experts, especially in the beginning. Even Cuomo praised him for his response to the virus until people came after him for saying nice things about Trump. The biggest failures are failures of bureaucracies, more than Trump and I'd put a lot more blame on Governors than Trump as well. The WHO, Fauci, CDC, congressional Dems - they were all against the travel ban from China, all against wearing masks and they were all more concerned about not offending China than they were about the threat. Congress was way more focused on impeachment than they were on the pandemic and once they failed to prove collusion, they shifted to blaming Trump for the failures of the federal agencies and state governments.

For me, I care a lot less about what he says than what he does. And as far as the divisive language, I put that on the media and the opposition, reacting to everything he said as racist when none of it is. He hasn't done much to heal the divide, but he was never going to be able to - nothing he did or said was going to be reported as anything other than the worst thing anyone could do or say, and of course it was all going to be blatantly racist or have a disproportionate impact on people of color or women or transgenders, etc. So if calling out the media and the opposition is divisive, so what, they weren't going to give him credit for anything. Prior to the COVID shutdowns, 55% of people said they were better off than 4 years ago, but Trump's approval rating never budged outside an 8 pt range. They were never going to let him or his policies get the credit they deserve, instead they whine about how mean he is and painting everything he says as a racist dog whistle to white supremacists because they couldn't really attack his record. It was like reading Michchamp's whining coming from everyone in the media, every Dem in congress and even some Republicans.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm starting to think that we would have been better off if Hillary would have won the election in 2016. She would have fucked up a lot of shit, but she probably would have handled the COVID outbreak a little better & she probably wouldn't have help intensify the racial divide in the country. Now, how I think it may have been better. My guess is the biggest reason that the senate was lost to the Democratic party is because of Trump. If she would have won last time, I think we have a different republican President getting ready to be sworn into office and we would still have a republican senate. We would have a liberal SCOTUS but that's fine with me. I just don't like the idea of a Democratic house, senate, & President. I think Trump was the worst thing that could have happened to this country 4 years ago, and that's saying a lot, because I despise Hillary.

I wonder what all would be different if we had Gore, McCain, H. Clinton. MC would say "nothing".

 

[Michchamp]

I wonder what all would be different if we had Gore, McCain, H. Clinton. MC would say "nothing".

See post #948 of this thread for example... Under Obama the FTC issued Pool Corp. a slap on the wrist, and enabled them to continue business as usual.

The causes of the popular discontent would still be there, and a Clinton administration would do very little to ameliorate them.

 

[Michchamp]

Not to go all "tigermud" on this thread, but the "Deep State" was in the tank for Bush Jr. for a reason. "Brooks Brothers Riot?" "Bush v. Gore"?

But for arguments sake... assuming Gore became president, as he should have, we didn't have a military and intelligence agencies actively meddling in politics, and the 9/11 attacks didn't happen, or even if they did, we didn't get The PATRIOT Act, and a president who would use them as a cassus belli to invade other countries that didn't have anything to do with them, and reacted to them responsibly (i.e. not by starting a "Forever War" in Afghanistan, but forcing the Saudis to actually stop funding the Taliban and reign Al Qaeda in)... then YES, things would be better today. We'd still be a functional democracy, and not a collapsing mess.

 

[zyxt9]

Not to go all "tigermud" on this thread, but the "Deep State" was in the tank for Bush Jr. for a reason. "Brooks Brothers Riot?" "Bush v. Gore"?

But for arguments sake... assuming Gore became president, as he should have, we didn't have a military and intelligence agencies actively meddling in politics, and the 9/11 attacks didn't happen, or even if they did, we didn't get The PATRIOT Act, and a president who would use them as a cassus belli to invade other countries that didn't have anything to do with them, and reacted to them responsibly (i.e. not by starting a "Forever War" in Afghanistan, but forcing the Saudis to actually stop funding the Taliban and reign Al Qaeda in)... then YES, things would be better today. We'd still be a functional democracy, and not a collapsing mess.

I was all for holding the Saudis accountable for their involvement in 9/11 and would still support that to this day in any fashion possible.

 

[Michchamp]

I was all for holding the Saudis accountable for their involvement in 9/11 and would still support that to this day in any fashion possible.

...but strangely enough, few in our government were. And NONE of the ones who bragged about being "tough on terror."

 

[Gulo Blue]

https://fox2now.com/news/national/i...ing-from-senate-balcony-asks-for-forgiveness/


So this guy is apologizing saying he just got caught up in the moment. I suspect, regardless of this one guy, that was probably the case for a lot of those people. I feel like there's a huge mismatch in how serious an offense breaking into the US Capitol is and how some people may have had as much malice as I would have rushing a football field after a big win (obviously from the 90s.)

 

[zyxt9]

...but strangely enough, few in our government were. And NONE of the ones who bragged about being "tough on terror."

100%...too afraid of OPEC IMO

 

[Spartanmack]

Not to go all "tigermud" on this thread, but the "Deep State" was in the tank for Bush Jr. for a reason. "Brooks Brothers Riot?" "Bush v. Gore"?

But for arguments sake... assuming Gore became president, as he should have, we didn't have a military and intelligence agencies actively meddling in politics, and the 9/11 attacks didn't happen, or even if they did, we didn't get The PATRIOT Act, and a president who would use them as a cassus belli to invade other countries that didn't have anything to do with them, and reacted to them responsibly (i.e. not by starting a "Forever War" in Afghanistan, but forcing the Saudis to actually stop funding the Taliban and reign Al Qaeda in)... then YES, things would be better today. We'd still be a functional democracy, and not a collapsing mess.

You?ve been reading too much Ben Rhodes. There is no way anyone would have been this week in response to 9/11. Those attacks cost next to nothing to execute so I don?t see what good not sending qurans to madrasas in Afghanistan would do and the Saudis had cracked down on Al Qaeda as much as they were going to. - they booted bin Laden and chased them out of Sudan or wherever he was in Africa before he fled to Central Asia where he was protected by the Taliban and Pakistani intelligence. Having Saudi Arabia deal with 9/11 would have only gotten us more 9/11s and Al Gore would have lost his re-election bid by more than Jimmy Carter.

 

[sggatecl]

I can't see the video, blocked at work but I'm going to go out on a limb and say, yes it is. Clearly, the crowd in Tinsel's video has gone out of their way to not assault cops. And I'm not assuming anything about the crowd, just going by what can be seen. Again, from Tinsel's video, the shooter also wouldn't know if there were others behind the guys in front who were armed, but it's clear from what he could see that he didn't see any protestors with guns and he definitely didn't see Ashli holding a weapon, let alone threatening him with one. Plus the 3 cops who stepped aside didn't draw their weapons and they didn't seek cover or leave the scene - seems like they'd be doing one of those things if they were confronted by an armed mob - they were at far greater risk form the mob than the shooter. And again, the angry mob throws up their arms when they realize a gun is pointed at them, except Ashli, tragically.

Whoa, that's one hell of an edit. I wasn't even going to respond initially. But ok, I'll bite one more time at least.

It's the same mob, same location, same day, shouting the same nasty shit in the video I linked. To call it a false equivalency when you're CONSTANTLY comparing this whole insurrection (or w/e the hell they're calling it) to BLM protests feels like a bad troll job.

You say you're "not assuming anything about the crowd, only what can be seen." You can't see shit, nobody can. There is a better chance of guns being in that sea of deplorables behind the 6 or so on camera than there is tigermud and byco both getting the Covid vaccine.

You're basing that entire crowds mentality and intentions on those couple guys in front that tell the officers to step aside. While at the same time some guy right next to him is yelling "Get the fuck out of the way" and "Fuck the blue".

You want those cops, legislators, their families (some congressmen had family with them that day, kids included), and government workers to restrain themselves while a mob bashes down the door. Because you think they just want to chat and no harm will come to them. You're crazy dude.

I get you're all in on the Trump train but damn dude. You've shown more remorse for this woman than any other police shooting in 2020. I guess it's all about that 'thin blue line' until it crosses you.

I'm done with this topic. To call the video I linked a false equivalency (without watching it lol) despite it being the same in every sense other than one was at an exterior door and one was at an interior door, is just a non starter for any conversation.

 

[byco42]

The only way I’m getting the COVID vaccine is if I’m rifle-darted like some rogue elephant from 200 yards. Otherwise, never.

 

[sggatecl]

The only way I?m getting the COVID vaccine is if I?m rifle-darted like some rogue elephant from 200 yards. Otherwise, never.

Looks like my analogy was on point! (I hope you stay healthy and you're never shot like an elephant)

 

[Gulo Blue]

If anyone needs a list of articles regarding the question of election rigging, here's one:


https://jeff-jackson.medium.com/was...ets-take-a-look-sen-jeff-jackson-887b5b9b443e

 

[Gulo Blue]

The republicans were right at the start of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXuXqzUO9E

 

[Spartanmack]

Whoa, that's one hell of an edit. I wasn't even going to respond initially. But ok, I'll bite one more time at least.

It's the same mob, same location, same day, shouting the same nasty shit in the video I linked. To call it a false equivalency when you're CONSTANTLY comparing this whole insurrection (or w/e the hell they're calling it) to BLM protests feels like a bad troll job.

comparing how riots are handled differently isn't a false equivalency - I don't see how you can think that. comparing a riot to a home invasion is comparing apples and oranges.

You say you're "not assuming anything about the crowd, only what can be seen." You can't see shit, nobody can. There is a better chance of guns being in that sea of deplorables behind the 6 or so on camera than there is tigermud and byco both getting the Covid vaccine.

Definitely not even close to true. I can see that three cops are reasoned with and asked to step aside. I can see that none of them felt the need to draw their weapons or flea the scene. I can see that no one the video other than the cops has a gun. I can also see the the shooter can't possibly see much more than I can see since he's behind a wall blocking his view. I can see plenty of things going on that I am not and never have condoned or defended and I can see an unarmed woman get shot dead and I can see that no one responded with deadly force. I can see the people trying gain entry immediately stop and try to help the injured woman. I can see one tactical officer come up from the stairwell looking toward the area where the shots came from, not toward the mob - like the other cops, it doesn't look like he feels threatened by the mob we can't see. Again, I'm not defending anything that these people are doing, I'm against rioting, period. I just don't think deadly force was the appropriate response at that point in this case. I don't know why that is so unreasonable.

You're basing that entire crowds mentality and intentions on those couple guys in front that tell the officers to step aside. While at the same time some guy right next to him is yelling "Get the fuck out of the way" and "Fuck the blue".

No, I'm definitely not doing that. Granted, I'm opposed to defunding the police and even prone to giving them the benefit of the doubt so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think "Fuck the Blue", rises to the level of justifying deadly force, particularly when "the blue" don't seem to feel threatened to the point of drawing their guns.

You want those cops, legislators, their families (some congressmen had family with them that day, kids included), and government workers to restrain themselves while a mob bashes down the door. Because you think they just want to chat and no harm will come to them. You're crazy dude.

Yes, I want them to refrain from using deadly force until it's necessary - I think you're out of your mind if you think that was appropriate.

I get you're all in on the Trump train but damn dude. You've shown more remorse for this woman than any other police shooting in 2020. I guess it's all about that 'thin blue line' until it crosses you.

This has nothing to do with Trump, I'm not defending or condoning the riot in any way and have said that repeatedly. It's possible to think the election was rigged and also not support the idiots rioting because they also think that. Saying that woman shouldn't have been shot also isn't supporting the rioting. I've always said all of those police shootings were tragic. I condemned the actions of Derek Chauvin, I was the first to post about the cop who shot the man in South Carolina and then planted his taser near the dead body and say the cop should get the death penalty. I've taken every one of the shootings here on a case by case basis and made judgements based on the facts and I stand by everything I've said.

I'm done with this topic. To call the video I linked a false equivalency (without watching it lol) despite it being the same in every sense other than one was at an exterior door and one was at an interior door, is just a non starter for any conversation.

Still haven't watched the video but you're right, I shouldn't have called it a false equivalence. It was a dumb statement and I retract it, but I stand by everything else in those posts - I don't think deadly force was the appropriate course of action in that case. I'll watch the video later on my phone.

 

[Michchamp]

oh no, how sad...

 

[tinselwolverine]

The republicans were right at the start of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXuXqzUO9E

Amen, Brother.

 

[Spartanmack]

Was this the 'no guns allowed' caucus of the mob? It's pretty presumptuous to assume that because two guys in the front don't have a firearm drawn that someone in the mob behind them didn't. Especially considering all the arrests that were made for unregistered firearms in the aftermath.

Let's show an example of a cop that didn't use deadly for against the mob at the capitol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-96rfdn8ofs&bpctr=1610406135&ab_channel=cristiangingoe

Is this another false equivalency?

now i have watched the video - unless I'm missing something, this does nothing to change my belief that the use of deadly force against Ashli was inappropriate. Again, unless I'm missing something in this video, I also don't think the use of deadly force would have been appropriate for any of these people. I do think the cops would be 100% justified in using tear gas/pepper spray (it looks like some of that was used) to disburse the crowd and then escalate from there if it doesn't work (cops in riot gear, bring in the armored vehicle w/ water canon, etc). The fact that the cops weren't prepared for this is a legitimate criticism but it doesn't make the use of deadly force appropriate.

I haven't seen video of the cop who was beaten and eventually died from the injuries - if it was in that video I missed it. I hope the people involved in that are identified, arrested and tried for murder.

 

[tomdalton22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-z8fvX6NAo

IMO, this is worse than any riot over the summer.

 

[sggatecl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-z8fvX6NAo

IMO, this is worse than any riot over the summer.

That's the video I shared. Apparently I'm over reacting.

Singing the national anthem as a cop gets beat to death. Not many things give me the chills but that's some terrifying stuff. Can't imagine how he felt in those last moments.