Wisconsin Game

[Spartanmack]

I thought you said you were done with this? I guess you just can't help yourself, typical egomaniac. You made your front seven comment right after I made my first post in the thread. You're not that hard to figure out.

still can't admit you were wrong about the ND front seven despite the fact that they have sucked in 3 out of 4 games - and I'm the egomaniac. classic. and I'm pretty sure you had made a few posts and it had been awhile before I explained what a good front 7 looks like.

and gotime is right - you are putting your heart before your head. probably because you have your head up your ass.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think you're putting your heart in front of your head here sbee. We threw the ball 7 times on first down in the first half alone. O'Conner was 2-7 for 14 yards on those throws. Honestly, what is he going to figure out now that is gonna stop him from staring down his first read every single time or not being able to read a defense at all pre snap? I mean, he's been here for 5 fucking years!

well said. if lewerke isn't a basket case and is the future of the program, put him in. I doubt our chances of winning go down that much, if at all - especially with a pretty soft schedule for him to get up to speed.

id also like to add that after dissing Cook and electing O'Connor, maybe the players shouldn't be choosing all the captains. I hope Dantonio reads DSF because he could get some good ideas here.

 

[Sbee]

The QB deserves all the criticism he's getting after yesterday, but I'd say our defense is pretty disappointing so far. The overall stats looked alright yesterday, and they were done no favors with some short fields, but when Wisconsin needed to move the ball, they didn't have much problem in doing so. It looks like the DB's are just as bad as last year and the front 7 isn't as good.

I think if you're looking for reasons why we lost yesterday, I'd put the defense at the bottom.

Wisconsin's offense needed 33 yards to get 20 of its points. They had the fumble for a td, the 5 yard drive after Hartbarger mishandled the punt, and then a 28 yard field after an interception. Wisconsin ran for 122 yards and passed for 195, nothing that special. Granted they were in the 8 minute offense with 15 minutes left to go in the game but it wasn't like they had a number of sustained drives. Hornibrook didn't have gaudy numbers but he made a few excellent 3rd down throws, thought he had better numbers actually.

We played adequately defensively without Riley, Shane Jones made some plays but Riley's leadership and calls at the line were missed. I don't even think you can really grade the defense from yesterday, they were put in impossible situations by the offense.

 

[Sbee]

I think you're putting your heart in front of your head here sbee. We threw the ball 7 times on first down in the first half alone. O'Conner was 2-7 for 14 yards on those throws. Honestly, what is he going to figure out now that is gonna stop him from staring down his first read every single time or not being able to read a defense at all pre snap? I mean, he's been here for 5 fucking years!

Didn't know the numbers, maybe you're right, it just seemed like in the 2nd and 3rd quarters we had a lot of runs for no gain or minimal gains on first down against those 8 man fronts. Hopefully TOC can be decent enough to take advantage of those coverages on non throwing downs with some play action, obviously he wasn't Saturday. I'm still not advocating for a change at QB right now, just that the leash should be considerably shorter.

 

[Sbee]

still can't admit you were wrong about the ND front seven despite the fact that they have sucked in 3 out of 4 games - and I'm the egomaniac. classic. and I'm pretty sure you had made a few posts and it had been awhile before I explained what a good front 7 looks like.

and gotime is right - you are putting your heart before your head. probably because you have your head up your ass.

For the record I think that the overwhelming majority of ND's defensive problems reside in their secondary, but this isn't really the place for that discussion.

I made my first post in the thread at 2:32, you responded with the front 7 comment 10 minutes later, at 2:42, your first post after I started posting. So no, it had not been a while and it was the first thing you said after you say that I made a post in the thread.

How about you do everyone a favor and leave the political animosity on the politics board and not nit pick every post I make here about MSU. If you want to have substantive discussions about the teams on this board, that's fine, but leave your vitriol towards my views over there, learn to compartmentalize.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Dantonio is a loyal guy, no way he benches O'Connor. I really think Lewerke needs to be given a good look. Sticking with O'Connor makes absolutely no sense at this point. Even if Lewerke is 75% the player that O'Connor is in the coaches eyes it's a no brainer, but then again my day job isn't being a coach.

 

[Sbee]

Dantonio is a loyal guy, no way he benches O'Connor. I really think Lewerke needs to be given a good look. Sticking with O'Connor makes absolutely no sense at this point. Even if Lewerke is 75% the player that O'Connor is in the coaches eyes it's a no brainer, but then again my day job isn't being a coach.

MD has replaced a number of seniors in starting roles over the years, Andrew Maxwell, Chris Norman, Kevin Muma among others. I think he's going to play the guy he thinks gives us the best chance at winning football games. He may replace players or stick with guys, but I believe those decisions are made with the best interests of the program in mind.

 

[Spartanmack]

For the record I think that the overwhelming majority of ND's defensive problems reside in their secondary, but this isn't really the place for that discussion.

I made my first post in the thread at 2:32, you responded with the front 7 comment 10 minutes later, at 2:42, your first post after I started posting. So no, it had not been a while and it was the first thing you said after you say that I made a post in the thread.

How about you do everyone a favor and leave the political animosity on the politics board and not nit pick every post I make here about MSU. If you want to have substantive discussions about the teams on this board, that's fine, but leave your vitriol towards my views over there, learn to compartmentalize.

how about you do us all a favor and get over yourself. this has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with football. my comments have been about our offense, defense and our opponents. you're the one taking everything personally throwing a hissy fit and resorting to ad hominem then trying to blame me. if you want to talk about first comments, look at your response to my comment, which was about football, and then tell me I'm the one who can't compartmentalize. grow up.

and for the record, you're incorrect. ND's entire defense sucks. their front 7 has one sack in 4 games and has given up 200 yards or more rushing against 3 of their opponents.

 

[Spartanmack]

Dantonio is a loyal guy, no way he benches O'Connor. I really think Lewerke needs to be given a good look. Sticking with O'Connor makes absolutely no sense at this point. Even if Lewerke is 75% the player that O'Connor is in the coaches eyes it's a no brainer, but then again my day job isn't being a coach.

Dantonio's loyalty tends to be more to bad coaches, like Bollman, than players. hopefully, lewerke will get more of a look in practice and non-garbage time game exposure. personally, I'd like to see him start against IU or NW. my concern is these next few games are the perfect opportunity for O'Connor to look better than he is.

 

[gotime909]

Dantonio's loyalty tends to be more to bad coaches, like Bollman, than players. hopefully, lewerke will get more of a look in practice and non-garbage time game exposure. personally, I'd like to see him start against IU or NW. my concern is these next few games are the perfect opportunity for O'Connor to look better than he is.

Lewerke should have gotten the entire 4th qtr instead of just that last drive. That, to me, was a coaching blunder.

 

[Sbee]

how about you do us all a favor and get over yourself. this has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with football. my comments have been about our offense, defense and our opponents. you're the one taking everything personally throwing a hissy fit and resorting to ad hominem then trying to blame me. if you want to talk about first comments, look at your response to my comment, which was about football, and then tell me I'm the one who can't compartmentalize. grow up.

and for the record, you're incorrect. ND's entire defense sucks. their front 7 has one sack in 4 games and has given up 200 yards or more rushing against 3 of their opponents.

Your comments were an obvious shot at me, so I responded to you about them. Again, you started it, bringing up a minor difference in opinion about an opponents defense, something I let go a long time ago but you, of course, never let anything go, though you said that you were "done with this" a while ago.

 

[Sbee]

Lewerke should have gotten the entire 4th qtr instead of just that last drive. That, to me, was a coaching blunder.

That's right in hindsight, but we also don't see what goes on in practice either. The unknown is always undefeated and that's Lewerke, though Wisconsin just subbed a freshman for a senior and it's working out for them. Obviously their situation is different because they had a real QB battle that lasted a while, TOC was clearly the best QB on the roster in spring and fall camp according to everyone in the program. He needs to go through his reads better, sometimes he locks on to one receiver, sometimes we're running our snag routes with 3 on the same side of the field so it's not obvious to the fans that he's making his progression. That's what you do after games though, watch the film, find your mistakes, learn from them. This is the first loss in his career as a starter, he's practiced for 5 years and that means something, but this is different. We're also comparing him to the best QB in program history, fair or not, but that's where MSU is right now. Wisconsin did lead the nation in scoring defense last season and we didn't have 15 days to prep for them like we did ND. I don't think we're at the point of change for the sake of change, but we could be with a few more performances like that.

 

[Spartanmack]

Your comments were an obvious shot at me, so I responded to you about them. Again, you started it, bringing up a minor difference in opinion about an opponents defense, something I let go a long time ago but you, of course, never let anything go, though you said that you were "done with this" a while ago.

Like I said, get over yourself. It wasn't a shot at you - it was to make a point about a previous discussion. One you went back and forth on but are now calling a minor point. I find it interesting that you respond to every post and are the one who resorts to ad hominem, but you accuse me of not being able to let something go and of being the one taking shots at the other person. You're a piece of work.

 

[Spartanmack]

Lewerke should have gotten the entire 4th qtr instead of just that last drive. That, to me, was a coaching blunder.

Dantonio is a good coach but he is prone to gaffs and blunders like this. He almost blew an unblowable game at ND - he looked pissed, but didn't change a thing and let the momentum snowball to ND - and he completely blew the Wisconsin game, got out-coached in every aspect of the game. He's head and shoulders above what we've had at MSU in my lifetime - in most people's lifetimes but he's not beyond reproach.

I agree 100% on Lewerke - putting him in for the last drive was useless. You can't put much weight on what he did against Wisconsin's 3rd or 4th unit so all they have to really go by is how he stacks up in practice - easy for TOC to look marginally better in practice then choke in the games.

By the way, was BTN mispronouncing his name? Is it really "le-worky"? If so, he should really consider changing it to "le-work".

 

[Sbee]

Like I said, get over yourself. It wasn't a shot at you - it was to make a point about a previous discussion. One you went back and forth on but are now calling a minor point. I find it interesting that you respond to every post and are the one who resorts to ad hominem, but you accuse me of not being able to let something go and of being the one taking shots at the other person. You're a piece of work.

I'll end this they way every argument with you has to end, you're allowed the last word.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's right in hindsight, but we also don't see what goes on in practice either. The unknown is always undefeated and that's Lewerke, though Wisconsin just subbed a freshman for a senior and it's working out for them. Obviously their situation is different because they had a real QB battle that lasted a while, TOC was clearly the best QB on the roster in spring and fall camp according to everyone in the program. He needs to go through his reads better, sometimes he locks on to one receiver, sometimes we're running our snag routes with 3 on the same side of the field so it's not obvious to the fans that he's making his progression. That's what you do after games though, watch the film, find your mistakes, learn from them. This is the first loss in his career as a starter, he's practiced for 5 years and that means something, but this is different. We're also comparing him to the best QB in program history, fair or not, but that's where MSU is right now. Wisconsin did lead the nation in scoring defense last season and we didn't have 15 days to prep for them like we did ND. I don't think we're at the point of change for the sake of change, but we could be with a few more performances like that.

You'll probably take this personally, but what the heck. Setting aside platitudes like "the unknown is always undefeated" and putting other comments in context, this is only TOC's 4th start so the point about it being his only loss as a starter is misleading. His job against OSU was to not blow the game - the weather was horrible, we barely threw the ball all night and he split snaps. In the 3 starts he's had this year, he's looked good against a horrible defense, looked ineffective against an FCS defense and looked awful against what appears to be a good defense. And even if we're stacking guys and he is actually going through his progressions, he still is missing wide open receivers, choosing instead to throw into double coverage. He locks in on one receiver enough on balanced formations that I think it's fair to say he's probably not going through his progressions when we run a stacked formation.

It's time to seriously consider a switch. It may be very easy for TOC to hide his weaknesses against the next 4 defenses we face. If we wait until he has another bad game or two, then we will could very well be giving up on the season and we'll be throwing Lewerke or someone else to the wolves as the schedule gets a lot tougher down the stretch. If Lewerke or someone else is the guy, ti would be nice to have him get meaningful snaps before the Michigan game.

 

[Spartanmack]

i'll end this they way every argument with you has to end, you're allowed the last word.

lol.

 

[Sbee]

You'll probably take this personally, but what the heck. Setting aside platitudes like "the unknown is always undefeated" and putting other comments in context, this is only TOC's 4th start so the point about it being his only loss as a starter is misleading. His job against OSU was to not blow the game - the weather was horrible, we barely threw the ball all night and he split snaps. In the 3 starts he's had this year, he's looked good against a horrible defense, looked ineffective against an FCS defense and looked awful against what appears to be a good defense. And even if we're stacking guys and he is actually going through his progressions, he still is missing wide open receivers, choosing instead to throw into double coverage. He locks in on one receiver enough on balanced formations that I think it's fair to say he's probably not going through his progressions when we run a stacked formation.

It's time to seriously consider a switch. It may be very easy for TOC to hide his weaknesses against the next 4 defenses we face. If we wait until he has another bad game or two, then we will could very well be giving up on the season and we'll be throwing Lewerke or someone else to the wolves as the schedule gets a lot tougher down the stretch. If Lewerke or someone else is the guy, ti would be nice to have him get meaningful snaps before the Michigan game.

Saying that the unknown is undefeated is my way of saying that fans only know about what they see or read about, which is incomplete information. Fans like us, though astute about MSU football over the casual fan, are leaps and bounds behind the coaching stands in our understanding of the game as a whole and our personnel. We are allowed to speculate, that's what these boards are for, but according to everything I've read and heard, there really was no QB competition this year, TOC was head and shoulders above everyone else. I think going to Lewerke is change simply for the sake of change, or at least playing for next year. I'm not ready to start playing for 2017 based on one awful performance, I know the staff isn't either, we will win the big ten east if we win out. It's not time to pack it in at 0-1 in Big Ten play. We can still have a successful season, though a championship is less likely.

It sounds like you're advocating playing Lewerke for our best chance to win in 2017, I think we should stick with TOC unless it seems as if there's minimal difference between the two in how they perform in practice. We disagree on that, that's fine.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm advocating for a serious review of who gives us the best chance to win in 2016 and I think they need to give another QB meaningful in-game test. Based on what I've seen, unless the depth chart is full of basket cases, I find it hard to believe TOC is head and shoulders above everyone else. Playing for 2016 and playing for the future are not mutually exclusive. I think, based on eligibility, giving another player a chance to win in 2016 means we're playing for 2017 and beyond as well. If TOC is marginally better than someone else, I say you go with the other guy, especially when the other guy could have 30+ starts under his belt when he's a 5th year senior. We should be able to win our next 4 games with an offense skewed toward the run and give an inexperienced QB exposure to game speed, etc. to bring him along. Remember, it's not like TOC has a huge advantage in game experience over the others.

I didn't like TOC's attitude at the beginning of the season - I didn't say anything because I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. But when he talked about not transferring and it finally being his "turn" I thought that's not how winners talk. You don't get a turn in big time college football just for sticking around - you work for it and you earn it.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Dantonio's loyalty tends to be more to bad coaches, like Bollman, than players. hopefully, lewerke will get more of a look in practice and non-garbage time game exposure. personally, I'd like to see him start against IU or NW. my concern is these next few games are the perfect opportunity for O'Connor to look better than he is.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of. O'Connor will look good against these below average teams and all of a sudden people will forget how badly he choked in the Wisconsin game. These next two games would be perfect confidence builders for a young QB like Lewerke.